Checking iffy signals?

[utahshovelhead]

I have been checking the iffy signals lately and trying different settings to inhance them but the truth is with the E trac I have very few iffy signals turn into good targets. Let me define that a little...most target hits I am getting that are good targets I recognize as good before I dig by all the indications on the machine and very few iffy signals that I am uncertain of turn out to be good targets when I dig them to check. With the Explorer a good portion of the iffy signals turned into good targets but with my E I am not getting surprised near as much as I used to. Is this the same for you?
I just need to know because at times I start thinking that I should check those deep iffy signals and not trust the machine so much but when I do I end up diggng lots of junk that I knew would be junk but had to check. I will still do this of course no matter what anybody says in the really good areas cause Im a shovelhead but I was just wondering if you have found your E to be accurate enough that you trust its read out more than you think you should?

Anyway, hope that is the case with more of you then less as then I might start digging less junk just to make sure its junk.

good luck,
utahshovelhead

 

[grumpyolman]

I am still learning as well. I have dug lots of rusty bent nails hoping that it might be a keeper colocated with iron. But...at this point my experiences are telling me if I don't hear the signal both directions, it'll be junk. It doesn't have to be a strong hit but just has to be there in some form both directions. Add both directions to deep and the probability of being a keeper goes up. When I do the ML wiggle or anything else to try to 'fool' the machine into giving me a 2 way signal, it seems to be counter productive. I am thinking that I need to trust the machine a bit more, and maybe myself, and scale back the iffy signal digging. What scares me a bit is the real pros who are digging the iffy one way signals and are finding nice stuff. Where I dig I can't use a shovel. Somebody would cry foul, and rightly so, and all metal detecting within a hundred miles would be banned. jim

 

[Digger]

The term "iffy" must mean different things to different folks. I moderate the X-TERRA forum and some members have had a few "disagreements" over this very subject. I don't profess to know all there is about this hobby. But I've been detecting for over 38 years and remember what an "iffy" signal sounded like on the old analog detectors. With today's digital electronics, I don't hear what I would call "iffy" signals. The receive circuit gets the signal bounced back from the transmit circuit, and the software tells the detector to beep. Sure, some signals are narrower than others due to the size of the target or it's depth. And if those signals are (fainter) not as strong as a larger target closer to the ground, or you don't pass the target directly under the "sweet spot" on the coil or there are adjacent targets that are partially masking the "good stuff"(via target blanking), then I suppose some could call those signals "iffy". But they sure ain't the "iffy" signals I remember.
Regardless of what you call them, iffy, super deep or masked, I am a firm believer in what I call the three rules of consistency. Location, Sound and TID. If you can X over a target in both a discriminate mode and an open Quick Mask mode, and the target doesn't change locations, it passes the test for consistent location. Next step is to listen to the tones. If the tone(s) sounds the same everytime you sweep across the target from the same direction, it passes the Sound consistency test. (Notice I didn't say the tone would be the same from every direction?) If it passes the location and sound tests, you should check the TID. If the TID responds the same when you sweep across the target from the same direction, you are consistent. And again, I didn't say the TID would be the same from every direction. TID and sound may vary with the direction your coil is moving, depending on whether there are adjacent targets and whether the target you are looking for is on it's edge or flat. JMHO HH Randy

 

[NebTrac]

Very very good posts gentlemen! There is a lot of good information that will enhance the learning curve of anyone here. I don't think I've ever had a one way back and forth hit that nulled at the 90 turn out to be a good target. Now I've had crappy sounding 2 ways that have resulted in coins....but anytime I dug a good sounding one way its junk. I do continue digging them, at time, just to make sure. This all depends on my mood and where I'm at. I've even had 2 way hits on barbwire, fencing staples and a few bent or large rusted nails.

This is why I believe it would be beneficial to have a "quick mask" type button that would switch you between, say your current pattern/mode and a ferrous mode set up. So you can toggle between the two and confirm your doubts without digging. I know quick mask is supposed to confirm this, but in my experience its always been the rusted iron type targets that give that silver sound.

NebTrac

 

[Digger]

I agree that deeply buried piece of iron can offer a sound that is similar to silver. But for the sake of discussion...... try the target location comparison between the discriminate mode and an open quick mask mode. What I've found is that iron targets appear to be in a different location when comparing the two modes, sweeping in a similar fashion. Maybe only a slight bit. But if you "zero in" on the target by using a blade of grass or pebble as a reference point, most trashy targets will not be in a consistent location, comparing both hunt modes. I'm still digging a few old bent nails that are "too close to call". But while digging them, I usually find them off-center. Oddly enough, regardless of the coil used, most of these targets seem to be found toward the lower left of center. Makes me wonder if it is just a coincidence or if those targets located anywhere else (compared to center) are rejected more effectively??? I'd be curious if anyone else has experienced this? Thanks. HH Randy

 

[NebTrac]

Randy that is great information and EXACTLY what I've been finding too. The only thing I will add is, to me, the nail will have a longer "crackling" type sound to it, especially in AM and of course reads in the mid 30's on the Fe numbers. But that left of center is what I've seen too....I just never thought about it before.

Now if we can just find a setting that will differentiate between a 12" buried smashed aluminum can and a 4" quarter.

NebTrac

 

[Goes4ever]

I have had several one way hits be coins, I dig a LOT of iffy signals, I hunt primarily old homesteads, and I am just too stubborn to walk past an iffy signal. I am thinking if I do dig it, it will be a deep nail, but if I walk away it will be an indian.....lol

so I always talk myself into digging them. But I have been rewarded several times. Of the times there was a deep coin that was a scratchy one way hit there was one or more nails either beside or touching the coin. If you think that every coin will signal at two directions when mixed with iron, you may be surprised.

Do this little test at home:

grab a normal size nail and a coin (silver dime, indian penny, whatever you pick)
ok, lay the coin down on the ground (do this outside not in the house) now lay the nail on top of it. Lay the nail so it is same direction as the center of your DD coil (basically north south if your behind the coin) Sweep your coil over it, you will get a signal

ok now turn the nail east and west and sweep the coin/nail again...........what happens? all you get is a loss in threshold because the nail masked it.

Now apply this to real life hunting. If you come across a coin with a nail on top, you will get a signal when you go over it one direction, you turn 90 degrees and nothing. Hit quick mask and if nail is on top it will scream iron. Try this experiment if you don't believe me. One way signals absolutely CAN BE COINS!

 

[Derrelld]

I agree with you Utah.. It has happened too me to.. I was so used to digging all those iffy hits with the SE, when I got the big E.. All the same iffy hits I was digging with the SE.. Turned out to be deep nails with the E-trac.. I found out adding a thin line across the top of the screen and stopping where the big silver hits... Does seem to cut down on the "deep fluty nails" or what we would think was a great signal on the SE lol I have dug some one way hits that turned out to be deep coins, but there was something about the signal that made it a little different from the other iffy one way hits.. I little smoother I suppose.. I also think by raising the threshold level up a little higher than what I was running on the SE.. You are able to hear the iron blank. When you get the "deep iffy" signal.. And you hear the blank on both sides.. It always seems to be a nail.. But if you get a nice smooth signal with no blanks on either side.. It seems to be a coin.. Most of the time... Just my opinion,, something I have been playing with the last couple weeks. I flagged 7 iffy targets.. Used the method, 5 out of 7 were coins.. Seems to be working for me... I am like you.. I don't mind to dig a little.. I still dig those deep nails out of curiosity!
Have fun bro!! hope to see some finds from your way soon!!!!
Derrell
P.S Digger hit the nail on the head! The definition of "iffy" is implied in different ways by different people!

 

[DJB50156]

Am still new with the E-Trac and metal detecting, about 2 months. I have the E-Trac's threshold pitch set to 28. With that setting when I swing the coil over a coin it really screams out. Sometimes though the high pitch only chirps for an instant. So I go over that spot, round and round. If I keep getting that chirp I dig it. Of course most of the time I find nothing or a bent nail. Most of the parks I hunt have been hunted to death. So I dig a lot of signals like that. I have found 8 silver coins in these parks. I would say half of them were "iffy" signals. Today I was hunting one of those same parks and had the exact "chirp" signal. I couldn't even get a consistent number to come up because there was junk all around it, but the "chirp" kept me interested. So I dug it. I dug about an 8" deep plug and laid it over. Probed the hole and there was something there even deeper. Dug a bit more and out came a 1943 silver quarter.
I will post a picture of it in a minute. Keep digging those iffy signals. You never know what you will find.
Thanks for reading and HH.

Dan.

 

[bummer]

The same thing happend to me one time .Got a iffy single one way with e-trac and null other way so decided to dig. About 6 inches down found a square nail.Put the probe back into hole got anouther single and out pops a 1828 bust dime so you never know.

 

[Goes4ever]

I have had several one way hits be coins, I dig a LOT of iffy signals, I hunt primarily old homesteads, and I am just too stubborn to walk past an iffy signal. I am thinking if I do dig it, it will be a deep nail, but if I walk away it will be an indian.....lol

so I always talk myself into digging them. But I have been rewarded several times. Of the times there was a deep coin that was a scratchy one way hit there was one or more nails either beside or touching the coin. If you think that every coin will signal at two directions when mixed with iron, you may be surprised.

Do this little test at home:

grab a normal size nail and a coin (silver dime, indian penny, whatever you pick)
ok, lay the coin down on the ground (do this outside not in the house) now lay the nail on top of it. Lay the nail so it is same direction as the center of your DD coil (basically north south if your behind the coin) Sweep your coil over it, you will get a signal

ok now turn the nail east and west and sweep the coin/nail again...........what happens? all you get is a loss in threshold because the nail masked it.

Now apply this to real life hunting. If you come across a coin with a nail on top, you will get a signal when you go over it one direction, you turn 90 degrees and nothing. Hit quick mask and if nail is on top it will scream iron. Try this experiment if you don't believe me. One way signals absolutely CAN BE COINS!

no comments on this?

 

[grumpyolman]

It's all great insight. Some people have stated what I experience but didn't recognize the pattern until I read/saw it through their eyes. There's still one variable that will always screw things up. That's the way ones brain computes the data being given by the machine. The 'iffy' ones are not as clear nor as consistent to the different brains/perceptions that different hunters have. Or...maybe there's just not as many hours using the machine to make that decision an easy one. I suspect I'll still dig a lot of nails for quite awhile. jim

 

[mikezap]

To me, its kind of like trying to find a gold ring. I remember reading that someone said you need to dig 1000 pulltabs to get a gold ring. SO.... say that finding a gold ring is one of your metal detecting goals for the year....Now say you are out detecting, and you get a signal that falls in the area where gold rings are, but you are perdy sure its a tab b/c its giving you a double beep... or its shallow or what not...do you decide to not dig it? Well, if you don't dig it, you will never know if its gold or not...and you have just passed up maybe tab number 234 on your way to 1000 lol. Now i definitely think that the ratio of junk iffy targets (mostly nails) to coins is much much lower... maybe somewhere in the 40 to 1 ballpark. And then it all comes down to what kind of detectorist you are, your location, and how much time you have, and also what your goals are.

To the OP, you are already a self proclaimed "shovelhead", so I would not change a thing...digging iffy signals is already part of who you are as a detectorist, and im sure you have been surprised on more than one occasion going after junk and coming up with treasure In my opinion there are some pros and cons of digging the iffys...here are a few of my thoughts, and why i dig the iffys regularly.

Pros.

1.You might find something that many many detectorists before you have passed up.
2.You might find something that is at the very edge of your detectors limits.
3.When you do dig up a junk nail, or something similar..you might have just unmasked a good target that is very near to the junk.
4.When you are digging an iffy signal, and it turns out to be a keeper...its a great feeling...you didn't know that you were going to find a silver half while digging for what you were sure is a nail....does it get any better than that?


Cons.

1.Time....digging iffy signals is almost always time consuming b/c they never pinpoint exactly.
2.Frustration..if you dig iffys all day long and only get nails, it can get you down mentally, and take away from the experience.
3.In my opinion, going after iffy signals is kind of area specific...if you are in a nice yard that you just got permission to hunt, and you are digging to china to find what you are sure is a nail, it might not be a good idea lol.
4.Not a big deal, and most should be wearing gloves anway...but if you are going after a nail, its probably a good idea to wear some kind of hand protection so you don't puncture your skin while your up to your armpit in the hole, and your hand is halfway to china trying to pull out that sweet railroad spike you just found lol.


I'm sure i could think of many more, but that's all i have for today lol. I would be willing to bet that most people that dig iffy signals could be considered "gamblers"...its all about beating the system, and really has nothing at all to do with metal detecting...you are trying to find a diamond in the rough, and that is part of your personality makeup. You're not going to stop digging them, so you might as well weigh out your own mental pros and cons for the day, and see if today is a nail day, or not Happy hunting!, and just remember you are not alone in the "I dig iffy signals club" !!

Mike

 

[fastgold]

I've nearly been caught out.Iwas teaching my nephew with an old pre minelab detector and was about to walk away when i decided it would be a good idea to get him to dig it. guess what ,a long thin flat piece of the good stuff on edge so wasted time or not i dig every thing now,mark

 

[Digger]

Hey Jim...... No pun intended. But you may have "nailed it" when you said: "There's still one variable that will always screw things up. That's the way ones brain computes the data being given by the machine. The 'iffy' ones are not as clear nor as consistent to the different brains/perceptions that different hunters have. Or...maybe there's just not as many hours using the machine to make that decision an easy one."


HH Randy

 

[patricka]

Great topic.

I'll throw in my 2 cents......I determine if I am going to dig iffy signals based on the location. I primarily hunt old Chicago parks. These places have been pounded for 40 years. At many of these locations if you go out and all you dig are solid 12/44 to 13/47 signals you will only come home with clad.

At several 100+ year old parks I hunt older coins are deep in the 7 to 10 inch range. I am more and more digging iffy signals at these locations. I am hunting with fast on, deep off, gain at 30 and sensitivity on manual around 25. I hunt with 3/4s of the top of the screen blank and have quickmask set at completely blank. I hunt very slow and listen for the high tones in between all the lower tone trash signals. If I get a somewhat repeatable iffy/jumpy signal at more then 6 inches deep I'll switch to quick mask and see if it screams iron at say a solid repeatable 35/45 where it locks on to an iron signal. If it doesn't I will then turn fast to off and listen. The fast on seems to clip the signal and I get a better audio on the target with fast off but because the areas I hunt are so trashy I can't hunt with it off all the time.

If it still seams like a promising target I will dig. This technique has rewarded me with barbers, seated and indians. Many times there is also some trash in the hole like a piece of iron that is below the target or to the side of the hole. Given these locations have been heavily hunted and targets are deep it pays to dig iffy deep signals.

If I am hunting a yard for the first time though, I will not use this technique as much as I will try to cover as much ground as possible and seak out the better signals since it might be the only time I get to hunt it.

 

[mickfin]

Digger Your right about the signal not sounding in the same spot 4R junk??? But what if the Junk has SILVER in the hole will it still sound in the same spot??????
This is a varry good post, And nobody talked about hunting in mineralization?????? That would be a Different Animal??? I just got my E-Track and im (kina)LOL still in the stock settings,
Iv found Silver N Gold stuff not to Deep but im having funn!! with a Little frustration!!! I was using Whites for 20+ years so its a Different sound for me with the E-Track,
And i still need to know what DEEP sounds sound Like???? If some of you seasoned users can Help me it would be greatly Appreciated, Mickfin,

 

[grumpyolman]

Mickfin...Find Andy's coin pattern on one of the forums and try it. It worked better for me immediately as opposed to stock. I particularly like pitch hold. It gives you a little more time to sort in your head that piece of silver that's weak or intermittent. Lots of good advice being shared. One just has to put the hours in to refine the reading part. But don't discount the reading part. Without the proper set up, and there's probably more than one or two good ones, you are putting yourself at a real disadvantage right out of the gate...jim

 

[Digger]

If you can't separate them, you wouldn't have heard two targets in the first place. But if you can separate them, depending on how big each target is, the larger surface area will provide the dominate signal. If they are comparible in surface area, the junk (if iron) will "move" within an area outside the perimeter of the silver signal. The silver will remain in the same location. At least that is what I've found, with the exception of those pesky bent nails that keep appearing at the 7:00 position!

The best way to learn what a deep target sounds like is to scan some in an air test. I don't claim the FBS or BBS units will airtest worth a darn. But we ain't after depth. We're trying to learn the sounds of those targets that are just on the brink of being "too deep". That's my opinion, anyway. HH Randy