can a detectorist ask for to much permission ?

[WaterHound]

That's my question ? The reason is recently I came across the Huron Manistee National Forest rules and regulations for metal detecting in Michigan at the parks and beaches and campgrounds .and it says that you can metal detect at beaches and swim areas but ! You can keep only coins and jewelry that are 50 years old or less ,no historical sites and you have to get a permit for anything else. Well after reading that and finding nice places to hunt on Google Earth I decided to make sure it was okay ,so I called the main office and asked a person who answered the phone and she said yes it's okay well I asked her if I could talk to her supervisor because I wanted to make sure what the rules were, and he said I could metal detect but I could not do any digging because the local bone digger told them that the historical layer is just inches under the surface ,and I asked him couldn't we use just a little trowel and he said no but if I seen a quarter sticking halfway out of the ground I could dig that by hand , of course on their website none of that stuff was mentioned it just said it was okay and it seems like that they would realize that detectorist are looking for things that are under the surface most the time ,and now I am thinking I should have just went with the first permission from the secretary just went with the regulations on the website and had those things available if I ever was question about it at a beach by an officer . yet when beach goers dig sand castles they leave holes that are sometimes two to three feet deep and they use diggers and detectorist fill their holes and take out a lot of sharp metal junk, jealous bone diggers ! I am very thankful that my experiences with Michigan DNR officers have all been good ones ,so asking too much permission is probably a reality and even if I have permission I should probably use the detector I don't mind losing . or just stay away because in Michigan there are a lot of other places two do the hobby

 

[Gerry]

First rule of thumb when asking questions, when you get the answer you want stop asking. You will find usually the government underlings have common sense, the supervisors got to be supervisors not for common sense but being political --- kissers.
Just my opinion, after working at the same place for 36.5 years.

Gerry

 

[WaterHound]

Thanks Gerry, I will definitely follow your good advice ,

 

[bootyhoundpa]

Lesson learned...umm? It's a fine line we walk in the publics eye.. even where permitted sometimes less busy times are best ... out of sight out of mind... sad part is there is a slim chance the no digging rule might have been one those more less forgotten rules. But is on the front burner now..

 

[Doc Holliday]

If kids can dig and build sand castles at the beach, you should be allowed to dig, also. Exact same thing, it's not like you're bringing in a backhoe....and, if asked, I am ALWAYS looking for 'coins of recent vintage' or 'pocket change for gas money'...if something else turns up, not my fault, I can't control that.

 

[WaterHound]

Good advice as well doc and bootyhoundpa , hunting the less occupying time keeping a low profile and the right awnser when asked is a must for detectorist caring about the future of this hobby , at times I carry those broken glass bottle tops with the metal rings or caps still on them , their a swimmers foot cutter for sure, and I will show them to someone whos asking . last year I tried water hunting a big public beach during crowded times and it wasn't good , weaving in and around people with just my head and earphones showing looks a bit weird , and then the kids chasing after me asking Mr are you finding treasure drained me .I was glad to get out of their , this spring I will do new sites as soon as the ice moves away from shore ,and in peak swim time at the break of dawn .

 

[doc holiday232]

IF you axe a question you are going to get an answer----may not be the one you want.

 

[WaterHound]

I here ya doc.

 

[Goldfleks]

I'd still go and detect. Sounds like it's OK to me, and I'd just forget I spoke with the super.

I feel like the stories of people getting in trouble are like the telephone game. I just do my thing. So far all I see is cops walking past or riding past on their bikes and park maintenance walking past or driving past in their carts. It's 2017, no one is getting paid enough to care about someone with a detector cutting a few plugs or scooping sand on the beach.

 

[iqwozpoom]

I concur with gold flex on this one. Just the other day I was tiptoeing through a wet park as maintenance workers came and went, all around me I could see grass torn up by dogs left off their leashes. Just make as small of a footprint as you can at your area and be on your best behavior, no worries.

 

[WaterHound]

Thanks for the responses , and good advice .

 

[Champ Ferguson]

Tom/CA must have quit coming to this site. This one is right in his sweet spot.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Water-hound, as champferguson alluded to, this topic is a "bee in my bonnet"

For starters, I bet those Huron-Manistee rules you read, probably only-ever came about because yester-year md'rs bureaucracy dreamed up rules to "address this pressing issue" brought in by yester-year md'r's Q's. And the matter crosses the desk of an archie for review. And presto, the "50 yr." limit gets in there.

And seriously, is someone standing around out there, armed with a calculator, doing the math on the ages of each coin we find ? Doh! It's the psychology of : Sometimes no one cares ... UNTIL you ask.

And when you read of that particular rule, it subconsciously caused you to ask at other places now. This is the understandable reaction that a cautious person might have. They think "aha, some places dis-allow it. So I better be safe and ask at the next place I come to". Eh ? Only to find themselves the newest victim of the "safe" answer. When in fact, probably no one cared less, or would ever have given the matter a moment's thought.

I saw this evolution first-hand back in the late 1970s to mid 1980s. No internet back then, so word traveled slowly. And very few "rules" (specific ones that actually mention md'ing anyhow), since the hobby was still in it's infancy. Back then it never crossed any of our's minds that there might be a rule, or that you "had to ask". Oh sure, we had the presence of mind to avoid obvious historic sensitive monuments, but that was about it.

But then the FMDAC was born in the early 1980s. In addition to a few articles in the TH'ing magazines about some hassles at lone isolated spots 1000 miles away. And as a result of that, a curious phenomenon began to occur : Any one reading that (if they are of a skittish mindset) figured "aha! I should start asking wherever I come to. After all, I don't want to 'get in trouble' like the article I read in the magazine or newsletter". So they started showing up and city halls and county offices. And getting "no's" sometimes. Oddly these answer often came at places that, quite frankly, were never an issue before. So you had old-timers scratching their heads saying "since when ?". See how this vicious self-fulfilling circle works ? It's as if we can be our own worst enemy ! haha

I'm not faulting you water-hound. Just pointing out that all the psychological factors of what I've suspected, are seen in your post here. Like, sure: You can ALWAYS find a "no", depending on which person at city hall you ask, what their mood is, and how you phrase the question. So FAR from being cut and dried "finding out the rules", you have merely subjected yourself to Russian roulette. And worse yet, guess what will happen when that same person sees another md'r out there (who he previously never gave thought to): He'll remember the earlier inquiry and think: Aha! there's one of *them*. And start booting others. I've seen that happen.

So in the future, just go. Unless of course you found FOR YOURSELF a true and *specific* prohibition. And barring obvious sensitive monuments. If someone still gripes, then you're merely looking for the ring your sister in law lost their last week, right ? You are NEVER going to please every last person and get red-carpets rolled out for you. This hobby has connotations (in turf anyhow) that you "might be about to leave a hole". So sometimes, rather than trying to seek everyone's blessings first, it's better just to pick low traffic times and avoid such lookie-lous.

 

[Champ Ferguson]

Good to see youre still here, Tom. The Universe just seemed unbalanced without you in this thread.

 

[doc holiday232]

Go Stealth and leave no trail.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

..Go Stealth ...

Sort of like nose-picking. Not necessarily illegal. And no one "asks permission". But we all sort of ... uh .... use discretion in our timing "so as not to offend the squeemish". In any given county with a population of 500,000 people, I'd wager to say that only a single one of those is of a purist archie mindset, who knows or cares about any such 50 yr. minutia. So is it our job to hunt down a pepper that person with questions to get his love and adoration ?

In the state of CA, for instance, we have cultural heritage verbiage in our state park rules. And if you follow through long enough and hard enough with definitions to words, I have no doubt you'd eventually come up with something to do with the magic "50". Yet, oddly, you can hunt state park ocean beaches here till you're blue in the face, and no one cares. Seems to me that it's better to simply leave it that way, than to go "seeking clarifications".

 

[Mark kus]

I hunt beach and parking areas near beaches and around houses in the "off season" and wear headphones
I dont get bothered if I do I just say sorry and move on.
I always make a neat clean plug to.
I been killing the silver around them!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... I dont get bothered

So you take that to mean that no one cares . And if you're not bothered as a general rule, then .... why rock that boat, eh ?

But here's what you need to do Mkus: Go to the powers-that-be that administer that beach or park. Start asking "can I?" type questions. Continue up the chain of command, higher and higher. Be sure to use words like "dig", and "take" and "holes" and "lawsuit" and "indian bones" and "cultural heritage". After all, you want them to understand the full implications of your request. You don't want to "mince words". Then your "pressing question" will no doubt land on the desk of a purist archie. And presto: You'll get your answer.

Then report back to the forum whether or not you "get bothered". Hurry. Go do the "right thing"

 

[DJW]

Old saying I go by: It is easier to ask for forgiveness than beg for permission

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Old saying I go by: It is easier to ask for forgiveness than beg for permission

And I would even go so far as to say "nothing to 'beg forgiveness' for ", if no one is there that gripes or cares. In other words, the 'pat saying' just assumes something is wrong in the first place. I realize that in this case, if someone cares to sleuth deep enough and long enough, they *could* find damning verbiage. But at what point does it become something akin to "spitting on sidewalks in NY" ? Not saying to throw caution to the wind, but ........ at some point, it's possible to worry too much about things of which no one (that will ever be within 1000 miles of you) even cares or thinks about.