:biggrin:Let's Start Another Campaign- Stop Using Military Shovels!

[Critterhunter]

This spawned out of another thread on probes in the Explorer or Etrac forum just today. I recently threw up a thread in the Metal detecting forum trying to get people to shame friends and strangers into popping targets with a screwdriver whenever possible to avoid us losing our rights. I'd like to carry this on to another blight on our hobby. That would be these idiots running around with shovels or even those tiny military ones that might fold up but still look just as bad to the public. I don't care if it's 1/3rd the size of a normal shovel. Unless you are going to take the time to walk up to every person who sees you with that thing and explain to them how careful you are about digging plugs, you are giving our hobby a bad image just as badly as guys who don't re-fill plugs properly.

I don't care how careful you are repairing a spot. Public image and first impressions are what matters and you're giving our hobby a huge black eye. What's funny is I've seen this type of hunter more than a few times. Normally he's dressed in some kind of old army jacket or wearing camo. He must think doing that and carrying a shovel makes him look like some big tough dude. More than likely he's got a lazy attitude and for various other obvious reasons is at a level that even the army wouldn't want anything to do with him.

Here's the thread in the Explorer/Etrac forum on pinpointers that this sparked from...

http://www.findmall.com/read.php?63,1163058,1163431#msg-1163431

And a re-post from there...

You've hit on several recent questions & messages I posted so maybe you guys can help. First, I've got a ProPointer and it's great. Supertuned I get 3 1/2" in my garage and it should be even more in the field due to less interference causing auto sensitivity to adjust too far down. The regular depth is more than enough without super tuning but with it super tuned you can really get down there to pop clads or other targets with a screwdriver real quick without digging a hole.

I started a campaign in the metal detecting forum to get people to start using a screwdriver on most targets less than say 5" deep. Otherwise we are going to lose are rights if people keep digging plugs when they don't have to. No reason to dig a plug for something at least less than 3 or 4", and it's very possible with deeper stuff provided you use a long enough screwdriver to get the right angle on it.

I use a very long screwdriver so I can get the right angle on deeper targets. I also like to lay my digger down at a 90 degree angle to the screwdriver and then push the screwdriver down onto the digger's handle for leverage, which allows me to put more force on the target and pop the real deep ones out using this "sea saw" or "teeter totter" method (which I'm sure I spelled wrong).

Some guys will say "I don't want to scratch a good coin". Come on, that's a cop out. Most silver at most sites is 5" or deeper unless it's virgin ground and even then you can usually tell if it's a silver coin if you know your detector. Round off the tip of the screwdriver and you aren't going to scratch it. Probing also has other benefits like faster recovery to rack up quick clad totals. People ring hunting in sports fields better start probing or we will lose those places. Shame your friends into popping targets. Even if they don't have a pinpointer they can probe outward from the center with a spiral until they hit the target. I used to do it that way without a pinpointer and you can still find it quick.

The other thing you guys hit on that I was just recently asking about is a digger that will allow me to dig deeper plugs without the need to make a really wide hole. What it comes down to is I'm using what I think they call a Sabre Tooth Trowel with the black handle. They are probably the most popular diggers on the market. It's served me well for years but it's blade is only about 7 1/2" long with an overall length of I think 12". With deeper targets I find I have to put the handle down into the hole, which also means I have to widen the hole more than I want to. I like to keep my plugs about as big around as a medium size soup can, a bit bigger than the top of a pop can...maybe 1 and 1/2 times the diameter of a pop can.

Anyway, I'm also not a big fan of those small shovels with handles on them that look like what the military carries. Carrying those around is very intimidating to the public because people think you are going to dig huge holes. Perception is everything in this world so I hope more of us will start discouraging fellow detectorists from using those. If you're so lazy that you don't want to get down to dig a hole then you better find a new hobby like stamp collecting where you can sit on your *&S even more. Even those shovels with very short handles that will fold up or holster to your hip are a big turn off to the public's eye. For all those reasons I want something longer than my current digger but not with some kind of shovel handle on it that looks unfriendly to people. If anybody has any suggestions please let me know. That Predator looks interesting but it's only a half inch longer than my current digger.

 

[grumpyolman]

I bought one of Predator's shovels. I don't use it when I am in public places. When I have permission to hunt a long gone logging camp and it's nothing but scrub forest, I'll use the shovel. I'll also fill in the hole.

critterhunter's right on. Another that's a bit on the fringe of being non-supportive, I'd suggest when somebody posts a really nice video showing them digging and finding fun things AND you see that they are digging in a way that potentially jeopardizes hunting in parks, schools, etc., don't write a glowing supportive post of that video. Read it an move on. I think we might be surprised at the number of hits that these sites get from people who are not into the hobby. We need to spread the good word, not just the word. Jim

 

[marcomo]

As my mother used to say, it's always the few that spoil it for the many.

Critterhunter, you make many excellent points.

The problem is, that moron who tears up the land is often the same guy who throws his trash on the side of the road, sneezes on the food at the buffet table and shakes your hand with the hand that he didn't wash after going to the crapper. He doesn't care about you, me, the hobby or any campaigns.

It's common sense to make the effort to leave the ground as you found it when dirt fishing, and it's common sense not to use a big old shovel in any public area. Unfortunately common sense isn't universal.

And it's a problem on multiple levels when some tool like the guy in that video posts a video excavating craters.

First of all, it's showing many newbies and wannabe dirt fishers who don't know any better the wrong way, a wrong way they may very well follow.

On another level, it's providing ammo for politicos and archies who will use it as evidence that many of us are pillaging and despoiling public lands.

 

[silversmith]

Hey, no way C.H. I got a WW2 folding shovel, wooden handle that folds into a pic, complete with carrying holster. And I gotta late mint jewel that tri folds with holster! It don't say China on it no where, Just made in U.S.A. I also lucked out and got a mint genuine, Yugoslavian square nosed wooden handled with hand hewed metal carrying holster. I use them when I'm out on the river looking for gold, but I'd never....... I say never, take one to a park or use on a lawn or somewhere like that.

 

[grumpyolman]

going to teach newbies the wrong way to do it or perpetuate a bad image for the hobby. Is it reasonable to ask the Guvner to 'edit' the videos that show people trashing the hunting areas and/or digging in a non-responsible way? At least to me that's more offensive than some of the profanity that might be present if not edited. The owners now do editing as they see fit. Perhaps there might be some encouragement from the rest of us dirt divers to ask for them to edit that. Jim

 

[Critterhunter]

That's a good idea. You make a video digging craters when you aint cache hunting then it gets banned. By the way, somebody in another thread mistakenly though I had something against the military because I mentioned the shovels and the guy wearing an army jacket or camo. Even suggested I was a lefty. Nothing further from the truth. I'm as conservative as they come, love the military, and shoot small critters (hence my handle) every chance I get. I'm simply against what the public thinks when they see any shovel, including the smaller military ones, being used on public land. My friends who know me will never stop laughing when they hear I've been called a lefty.

 

[Beale]

Well I am left handed, does that count?

 

[grumpyolman]

Unfortunately CH, it looks like our pleas have fallen on deaf ears. Not much interest in protecting the hobby. I do know that once the city council has eliminating detecting in city areas on the agenda, it's too late. Jim

 

[Critterhunter]

Yep, people just don't care what happens to the hobby because they think it will never be banned in "their" neck of the woods. I can tell you that in the hobby of RC planes we've already lost one park to fly at because of a woman who lived near the park. She's one of those people who thinks that park is just there for her.

We would always fly real early on a Sunday morning and NEVER when people were present anywhere nearby the open field we used. We tried to stay well away from any areas of activity or people and keep our planes over that back field and the woods behind it. Didn't matter, she just couldn't stand us having fun in "her" park. She even approached me once and asked that I stop flying my plane over her house. I mentioned that her house was behind me by several hundred yards and I don't like flying planes where I can't see them. Meaning, behind my back or way down some road where I wouldn't even be able to see the plane let alone fly it over her house.

Keep in mind these are quiet electric planes our group flew there. Never gas. Anyway, we lost our right to fly there. Even the cops were cheesed off because they used to come sit and watch us on duty. It doesn't matter how respectful you are of others. People just can't stand seeing others having fun and love to stick their nose into it. For that reason we don't need to give people even more reasons to complain, such as carrying around diggers that look like shovels in public places.

All this doesn't matter to me much. I mostly hunt in the woods. When they ban hunting some of these spots nobody is going to find me because I'm two miles back in there doing my thing. I'll even break out my hunting camo if I have to. All you guys digging plugs in sport fields and parks when you could just as easily pop most of those targets with a screwdriver will be the ones who suffer, and you'll have nobody to blame but yourselves.

 

[Sven]

going to teach newbies the wrong way to do it or perpetuate a bad image for the hobby. Is it reasonable to ask the Guvner to 'edit' the videos that show people trashing the hunting areas and/or digging in a non-responsible way? At least to me that's more offensive than some of the profanity that might be present if not edited. The owners now do editing as they see fit. Perhaps there might be some encouragement from the rest of us dirt divers to ask for them to edit that. Jim

What is needed are some videos showing the proper way to retrieve a coins with different tools in various soil conditions without damage being done to the area.
This should be a sticky post, maybe placed under announcements or someplace that can be seen easily................
I think we are all guilty of digging some pretty crappy holes at times, at least I can camouflage them so they are almost unnoticeable to the average person.....

For most of my digging, I'll try to use a metal probe, a long Stanley slotted screwdriver with rounded tip edges, the tip is also slightly bent upwards. Works pretty good most of the time. Those items that I cannot feel with the probe have to be dug out with my vintage lightweight Cattaragus hunting knife, about a 7" thin blade with the perfect blade pitch.
Best digging knife I have ever used, had two at one point. Sold one to a collector, kept the other and custom ground the handle to fit into my palm.

 

[GRAY GHOST]

hi critterhunter. first off, sir, i routinely use a small shovel and have to get dirty knees just like everybody else. as a 30 year man in this great hobby, and a bonafide ambassador besides, your words come across as pretty harsh. secondly, i'm not a yard, beach, or clad hunter - [i used to be] - so i can see where small digging tools and increased personal responsibility would be needed. you are obviously not here in the south; if you were, you'd have thrown your screwdriver away a long time ago. garden trowels don't get it down here either for the types of hunting we do every chance we get - preferring old cellar holes, old homesites, and relic hunting.

we routinely dig holes much deeper than any clad hunter or most park or beach hunters ever thought of digging - because our targets are much deeper than most. just try to dig a 15" hole with a screwdriver or a garden trowel - good luck, see ya in a couple of hours! our small group of three friends get out together at least twice a week, enjoying the thousands of acres we have available to detect. we also enjoy the trust of multiple landowners, who all know us well, and often get us other places to go to. simply put, we have an excellent relationship with just about everybody in the hobby we come into contact with. no hole goes unfilled; we don't trespass, either. our references are SECOND TO NONE.

it's unfortunate that so many spots are being closed down to detecting. the reasons for that are many and sometimes complicated and twisted by archaic laws and silly people with nothing better to do. yes, some of it is because of people not filling their holes back in, using backhoe sized shovels to dig a 2" hole, trespassing, etc. i've seen a lot come and go in my thirty years, critter. no law will ever stop me and my friends from metal detecting. last time i checked, i own a piece of this great nation too, and we mean to keep digging up our collective history, preserving it, keeping it, and documenting it, without pay of any sort, for the future generations to see, hold, and appreciate, like we always have, until we are no longer able to do so. and we won't be using a screwdriver to do it, either.

i would never have thought a good fella like you would call us "idiots" with a "lazy attitude" - dude, i dig more in one week than 90% of the people on this forum does. don't believe me? you know how to research posts. REMEMBER, CRITTER - YOUR RIGHTS AREN'T BEING TAKEN AWAY; YOUR OPPORTUNITIES ARE. no man or woman on this forum has a "right" to detect anything. i've put many a hobbyist in their place for leaving their holes unfilled, trespassing, too big a shovel, etc. and will continue to do so. i strongly feel that educating our new people is key. anybody can pick up a machine and make a big hole! now, critter, whenever yer ready to come detect with us in the heart of the confederacy, come on! but, you'll have to bring a small shovel, 'cause this stuff is DEEEEEEEEEP! thanks for a great post, critterhunter.

 

[GRAY GHOST]

n/t

 

[grumpyolman]

Gray Ghost...Don't think any of the posts are directed towards a professional like you. If you aren't the one digging the holes and leaving them, no problem. Don't know if you saw it, but the video that started all of this showed a guy using a big shovel in a grass area of what looked like a park. He cut a plug when a flap would have worked and would have been better to keep the grass alive. The dirt dug was thrown on the ground next to his hole, not on a ground cover. And...he wasn't relic hunting in the woods next to a site that held a cellar hole. Relic hunters don't usually dig a nasty hole in the middle of a park or school. The guy in the video did. The point to all this is that new folks seeing this or people researching damage caused by metal detector hobbyists see that and the newbies consider it a learning tool and the anti-detector folks use it as an example of why detecting should be banned.
Isn't seeing that a different kind of 'profanity' equal to the act of using vulgarity on this forum? I think it is. That's why I say it should be edited like the vulgarity. Jim

 

[GRAY GHOST]

yessir, you and critterhunter are absolutely right - shovels don't belong anywhere near manicured or tended turf. 90% of all targets in such areas as parks, old houses, etc. are less than 6"deep. i wrote a series of how - to articles for another forum covering all aspects of object recovery - and it went over well. education and mentorship of our newer hobbyists will help a great deal. i happen to live near one of the metal detecting capitols of the world - richmond, va., so i can certainly relate to your pain. we tend to put such sloppy diggers in check very quickly when we see it happening. something needs to be done, i agree.

having been a member of this great forum for nearly three years, i have yet to see the code of ethics posted for all to see and review. i'd like to see a newbie's help forum on find's - and i would contribute articles to it. they would cover a wide range:

1. how to choose the right digger for you 2. when and how to clean [or not clean] your finds 3. how to choose the right machine for you 4. digging techniques 5. common sense guidelines of detecting 6. how to obtain permission 7. equipment list for the field 8. how to detect oddly shaped tracts of land 9. how to do good research and make it pay 10. the differences [and similarities] of beachcombers, coinshooters, cladhunters, and relic hunters 11. personal safety in the field 12. how to preserve, document, and display your finds 13. understanding the law 14. how to maintain good relations and get more places to go

these articles are nearly page length, and don't discriminate or differentiate between the various machine makers. i'd be glad to help out if find's was willing to start a newbie's help forum. i can vividly remember my first few years and the hundreds of unanswered questions that i had. education and mentorship is the key. thanks for you kind words, grumpyolman.

 

[HaroldILL.]

I agree with you 100%! I use a hand trowel in parks at all times. The only time I brake out the shovel is deep woods hunting only if targets are deep. Every once in a while I hunt chicago parks and about 90% of the guys I see out there use shovels. They always give you the same old crap about how they can dig a neater plug with a shovel. I try to explain to them that it doesn't matter that it looks bad,But they say that the cops don't say anything so it's all rite. What they don't understand is all it takes is a person with a cemera to video tape them and send it to the local news. And for the news to do one of those speacial reports on how detectorists are damageing their city parks and they will all be shut down to metal detecting! It's already happening to forest preserves. I use to never have a problem there until the last couple years. I have been kicked out of two of my best spots and the forest preserve cop told me it was because of guys with those damn shovels! There's alot of newbees yuppies on another forum that all they use is shovels in chicago parks! Thats one reason I don't post on that forum. It's good to see people on this forum have a little bit of curtisy and care about the hobby other than greed!

 

[grumpyolman]

I started to watch a video posted on the E-Trac section and after two minutes I turned it off.

http://www.findmall.com/read.php?63,1165292

Shovel in a grass area. No ground cover to place the dirt on. And a big F_ _ _ _ _ hole. No flap. Maybe farther on they did dig properly, but in my opinion the first two minutes were totally interesting and fun, but totally trashed the hobby. Dang moderators!! Delete that stuff. Jim

 

[HaroldILL.]

Thats the way it is here in the chicago parks! And then they pat each other on the back for how much silver they get in a year!

 

[Critterhunter]

Yesterday was my first day out in about two months due to the snow on the ground. It took a friend and I a while to find a patch of ground with no snow on it by driving the park. We finally came across about a 100 yard long by 20 yard wide patch of green grass. After all the talk on this forum about pinpointers and shovels it was with great irony and disbelief that I found plugs dug that were still open in this small patch of land! It seems somebody else noticed this being the only non-snow covered spot around for a stretch of park driving.

Not only that, but this jerk had left the trash right next to the open hole. I picked up a few round pulltabs and covered up his dirty work. And these were plugs only about 2" deep that he could have easily popped with a screwdriver or at the very least filled back in and took his trash away. I'm not going to say where I was but let me say this...If I catch this guy doing this again I'm going to dig a nice UNFILLED plug in a few of his car tires and maybe one in his A&* as well.

I'm posting this on here because I have a feeling he may be reading this. I also think I saw him that day on a sled hill with no snow when we were driving by. That side of the hill doesn't get good sun so it was still frozen and this idiot was hacking way with something that looked like a pick! I'm not happy and believe me the park rangers will soon kick us out for this kind of stupid stuff. They already require us to carry a permit to hunt there.

I popped targets with a screwdriver and only dug one plug when I thought I had a silver dime, which it turned out to be. No reason to dig plugs when you don't have to. It's also less work so you'd think these lazy bums would want to do that since they think it's too much work to stick a plug back in the ground or pick up their trash.

 

[Critterhunter]

I could be wrong but I think I pointed out in my prior post that hunting private land or in the woods is a different issue. If you feel the need to carry some type of small shovel into such locations then I can see that because you are not on public land or at least in public view. Most of my hunting happens to be in the woods and we have a large amount of limestone clay in our neck of the woods. It's not everywhere but more often than not instead of the soil being rich black topsoil it's a yellowish soil with clay. In those cases targets aren't very deep anyway so a normal digger or screwdriver will be well within reach of it since things don't tend to sink far in that type of ground, eliminating the need to dig deep. It may be harder ground to dig where you'd like to use a shovel but as said I don't usually have to dig as deep in that type of soil to reach the target. I manage just fine digging plugs when I have to in that type of soil without the need for even a small shovel. When we hunt ground conditions that change into a nice deep rich black loam the targets can be much deeper, but this is also where a screwdriver is easier to slide into the group and pop it out, or a normal digger has no problem digging a nice plug, so as you can see the two types of soil both give good reasons not to need a shovel. I find most people who carry a shovel do so because they just don't want to have to get down on the ground while digging. I can't remember the last deep target I ever dug where I said "a shovel would have made that job easier", but then again I'm not digging cannon ball sized targets most of the time.

Just the same, even on private land I wouldn't personally want to carry any type of shovel because the land owner might frown on the looks of that. It's just all about common sense. Use a shovel when you are in the woods out of the view of others, but anywhere where the public can see things is just asking for trouble IMHO.

I was just talking in another thread about the fact that I never try to use name calling or insulting a person to make a point that we disagree on. However, that's in subject areas where one person's opinion is just as valid as any other. There isn't any excuse or gray area when it comes to using shovels in open areas on public property. When I find plugs being left open or people carrying around shovels on public land I have no problem with calling them just what they are- idiots. I don't think anybody in their right mind is going to defend that position, but like I said I'm not referring to the situation you're in hunting woods or on private land. Two different birds all together. I'm putting that label on these guys who use shovels in open public areas, dig plugs when a screwdriver will work even better, or leave plugs open and trash laying on the ground. Anything else between these extremes is a matter of opinion and I'd never insult a person's point of view in those grey areas because you could very well argue that they have a valid point. I hope you can see the distinction here. This is rare for me to use words like "idiots" or "jerks". I normally scold somebody for doing such things in an honest difference of opinion just to try to defend their side of the debate, but I make no excuses for putting a label on the above very specific types of behaviour that I described- only. If they are going to dirty the name of this hobby by doing such things then I'll call them what they are without sugarcoating it.

 

[DK]

Probing is ok, and so is plugging if done right. We should always flap the hole so as to leave the root contact in place. Never plug a hole and completely remove the plug. If you know how to use your detector and pinpoint the right way you won't need to dig a large hole to recover a coin. We need to teach the right way to recover, by showing those who may be doing our hobby injustice. Then we have some who just don't really care. 9 time out of 10 you can't tell where I have recovered, and the patch does not die out if you keep the root system in place. If the dirt is real loose probing is great, and we need to teach the right way to probe. More to it than sticking a screwdriver in the ground, again, knowing how to pinpoint with accuracy is a big plus.