Barnacle Bill / anyone - Ground Balancing observation

[tony (Orlando FL)]

Morning Bill,

I read your info in a recent post this morning regarding GBing the X70 with interest. Here is what I read ' on the X-Terras, "positive" adjustments are lower numbers and "negative" are higher.'

Using a piece of ferrite, my x70 ground balances at a value of 9. When I INCREASE the GB #s manually, the same piece of ferrite begins to respond audibly, meaning the X70 is now set too positive and therefor must reduce the #s in order to return to complete neutral balance by lowering the actual GB..

Because its very rare imo to find the ground to be measured much less (negative) than ferrite itself, explains why the scale is so small below neutral ferrite, meaning any ground valued less than 9. (1-9). I dont think we could find many who's ground balance is less than a value of 8 in the USA (unless they are on a salt water beach perhaps).

This ferrite sample method displays that higher #s are in fact higher ground balance settings.

In extremely HOT HOT ground any detector will require the ability to cancel these ground effects out to be most usable, because this is true, you need to have the most adjustment swing available on your GB control and on your side. Consider that a neutral ferrite ground balance value is a setting of 9 (ferrite neutral) to the max high GB number setting of 90 on the x70 is greater/larger than is the distance from neutral ferrite value of 9 down to a value of 1. This significantly greater setting range above neutral ferrite, which is a span of 10-90 indicates that most folks will require THAT ability to offset their ground more so than the lower range of only 1-8 which is below or lower than neutral ferrite.

I am really interested as to why my results and also why my thinking are soooo opposite of how I have been reading GB theory regarding the X70. Any thoughts on this?

Thanks for your time,

Tony

 

[BarnacleBill]

Warning Technical Post Follows, reading may cause high consumption of Adult Beverages!


Hi Tony,

First I'd like to define what positive & negative from the "Old School". The following is an excerpt from a Tesoro manual of a non-metered detector. Old School by my meaning is that as the coil is traveling down towards the ground any response is positive, with the coil on the way back up if there is a response this is negative.

"As the coil is dropped, the detector will start to read the ground minerals and will give you one of three sounds: 1) The threshold tone will get louder and raise in pitch. This is a positive response; 2) The threshold tone will go quiet, followed by a quick tone. This is called a negative response; 3) There will be no change in the threshold tone as the coil is dropped. This is the balanced response."

I think you'll find the following post I made on the F-Series forum of interest. (Trying to bring enlightenment to those Savages is never easy!)

http://www.findmall.com/read.php?37,910754,910754#msg-910754

Please note that the Fisher & Minelab scales are inverted. You are more magnetic heading towards the lower numbers on the X70, & heading towards the higher numbers on the F70. Also note Fisher's explanation of what their GB numbers represent. Translating from the "Old School" my meaning is that as you tend towards more magnetic that is a positive direction, and away from it a negative direction.

In regards to ground phase readings I have no problem encountering ground in the 5 to 6 range. When I was testing the X50 there is a freshwater beach 5 minutes from my house that was reading 0(El Zero) and it wasn't all the way there to balance. Yes the scale is different but it confirms I have some nasty stuff around. I do have the advantage of having mild to wild to try detectors on.

I hope this info helps.

HH
BarnacleBill

 

[tony (Orlando FL)]

Hello Bill,

Good hearing from you on this.

I too, was using old school methods and terminology. Using ferrite is simply a 'constant' and also a method Tesoro and others use to set the balance on preset units.

Not looking at the meter and not being concerned about the numbers now, only the direction at which I have to adjust the GB setting on the X70 to indicate a too positively set GB as the coil is lowered towards the ferrite. I will cheat a little on what I just said though, I KNOW ferrite is neutral at a setting of 9 . Sooo in order to set the x70 to the point where it responds audibly to the ferrite, I have to RAISE the gb setting only a couple clicks of the + GB button/pad. There is no response when i raise the coil at a more positive setting.

On the other hand, IF I reduce the GB using the negative button, the ferrite WILL sound off on the up stroke, just as you have indicated when the setting is too negative.

As you pointed out, there ARE places that are below neutral and these are somewhat unique I would venture to say. These may be alkali lakes or grounds, I havent looked into situations like this because we simply dont have them here , at least, none that I have come across.

You are correct also that a F series fisher does read ferrite as a 90 on its gauge if I recall correctly. I tested that one as well. As you can see, Fisher also has about 9 steps before it runs out of GB adjustment capability, just like the X70 has but because each company chose to display the results in their own way, or a way to be 'different' from the others, the end result is very smilar.

The X70 is NOT actually backwards as some think it is.

Bottom line as I was telling a friend, it really wont make any one of us a better detectorist to know the ins and outs of the technical mechanics of what may be going on inside the unit, all this information for the most part is simply 'nice to know' Main thing is to be able to operate the unit per the manual and have the most success / fun possible.

 

[TomB]

MY OH MY...thanks..I think. TomB

 

[xwyokid]

Warning Technical Post Follows, reading may cause high consumption of Adult Beverages!


Hi Tony,

First I'd like to define what positive & negative from the "Old School". The following is an excerpt from a Tesoro manual of a non-metered detector. Old School by my meaning is that as the coil is traveling down towards the ground any response is positive, with the coil on the way back up if there is a response this is negative.

"As the coil is dropped, the detector will start to read the ground minerals and will give you one of three sounds: 1) The threshold tone will get louder and raise in pitch. This is a positive response; 2) The threshold tone will go quiet, followed by a quick tone. This is called a negative response; 3) There will be no change in the threshold tone as the coil is dropped. This is the balanced response."

I think you'll find the following post I made on the F-Series forum of interest. (Trying to bring enlightenment to those Savages is never easy!)

http://www.findmall.com/read.php?37,910754,910754#msg-910754

Please note that the Fisher & Minelab scales are inverted. You are more magnetic heading towards the lower numbers on the X70, & heading towards the higher numbers on the F70. Also note Fisher's explanation of what their GB numbers represent. Translating from the "Old School" my meaning is that as you tend towards more magnetic that is a positive direction, and away from it a negative direction.

In regards to ground phase readings I have no problem encountering ground in the 5 to 6 range. When I was testing the X50 there is a freshwater beach 5 minutes from my house that was reading 0(El Zero) and it wasn't all the way there to balance. Yes the scale is different but it confirms I have some nasty stuff around. I do have the advantage of having mild to wild to try detectors on.

I hope this info helps.

HH
BarnacleBill

 

[TURNMASTER]

Know that I know this (or at least have read this), I am not sure what to do with the information. Now I feel like I have to learn what all of this means to me.

In this case ignorance was bliss. At least I can GB the machine.
Jeff

 

[BarnacleBill]

These type(technology) of detectors are the electrical equivalent of a Balance Beam Scale. Before you go to weigh anything with a Balance Beam Scale you need to zero it. You zero it to compensate for dust/debris, wear, temperature etc., in order to Identify the correct weight.

[attachment 140815 scale.jpg]

The X-Terras along with the vast majority of metal detectors are known as Induction Balance detectors. In order to work correctly you need to zero out the soil/ground and have the Induction Field balanced. Therefore when you are Ground "Balancing" you are taking the Electrical Balance Beam Scale you have in your hand and zeroing out the effect of the ground.

In order to correctly use a Balance Beam Scale whether mechanical or electrical, you simply need to understand "how" to zero it. You don't need to understand how it was constructed or the Coefficient of Friction to accurately use it. Yes, by understanding more you can gain more insight into it's behavior. i.e. Zeroing a mechanical Balance Beam Scale on a tilted surface is not really what you want to do.

But no need to break your head over something that's a nicety but not necessary.

HH
UnBalancedBill

 

[Jackpine Savage]

These are ground phase readings which do not Indicate the amount of mineralization present only the general type.

"paper theorists" aside The X70 just does things differently especially so in neutral or mild ground (think like the CZ's, if it don't want to GB use the preset).

Also if you think that lowering the GB number on the X70 (more positive) will give the same result as going a little more positive on "old school" detectors for iron handling ect you may want to rethink that. Get negative (like me) to see what the X70 can do. Perhaps that's the rub and why the reversed numbers throw so many off.

on the other hand...what the Heck do I know

signed
just another dumb Savage.

 

[Furious T]

Thanks, BB for the last post...my brain was going out of balance reading the first few...I was pretty sure I knew how to balance a detector (Tesoro and XT) but trying to keep a balanced view of the negatives and positives in relation to reductions and increases made me inclined to to decline to read any more when I then found that I dont have to understand balancing to retain a balanced view...Just hope I dont fall over next time I'm balancing.