balancing hip mount gt

[Jiminsandiego]

My hip mounted gt with 10 inch tornado still seemed heavy to me. I have it set to medium length and my elbow is right in the middle of the arm cuff. I noticed that it seemed to balance better if I curled my pinky finger (of my swinging arm) under the shaft. Then I thought, why not raise the elbow higher above the shaft instead of lowering my hand holding the handle? I put a rolled up sock under the arm cuff cover and WOW! For me this seemed to balance much better. Less strain on my upper arm and I can swing it with just two fingers. Seems strange that a straight shaft would be the most ergonomic design. And the balance is obviously going to change when hip mounting. Anyone ever play human factor engineer for a shaft designed to hip mount?
Any input is always appreciated
Cheers,
Jim

 

[JHM]

The problem with the GT is the heavy a$$ coil at the end of the shaft. plugger's shafts help with this by moving the control box behind the arm cuff for counterbalance. I think hip mount makes it worse because it takes weight off the back of the detector. Best thing to do is get a lighter coil and move the control box back.

 

[Critterhunter]

Yea, that's called leverage. With the box hip mounted now the coil end is obviously the heaviest part of the shaft. A balanced shaft should balance right at the hand grip or perhaps about 2 to 4" just in front of the grip (towards the coil). That way when you hold the grip the coil end naturaly points downward to the group. My custom light weight GT balances about 2 to 3" past the hand grip towards the coil. Perfect as far as I'm concerned. If you lighten the machine you don't need to move the control box further back, but if it's stock then yea I'd put the box on an extension past your elbow. Somebody sells extensions for this that plug into the back of the stock shaft.

As for the unbalanced thing with the box off the shaft...Think of it like this. Have you ever moved a tall 5 or 6' high lamp acrossed the floor? Normaly they are weighted at the base to keep them from tipping over. The darn things are about the biggest pain in the *ss to move around because of this. Same deal with a shaft that doesn't have the box on it. When I used to hip/chest mount my GT I didn't really find that my arm was less tired due to the unbalanced shaft.

The stock 10" coil isn't all that heavy. Remove the coil cover and it's not any heavier than pretty much any other coil out there in that size range. It's the balance thing.

 

[kered]

To balance anything you need to equal weight, if you hip mount, the detector will be front heavy, put some weight in the tube behind the elbow, for all it will be hevier it will feel better due to the balance.

 

[Critterhunter]

And because of the magic of leverage, the further back you place that weight the less you'll need to use. Who was it that said give me a big enough lever and I can move the world? I've dealt a lot with these issues in building RC planes. COG (Center Of Gravity) is very important in a plane flying right. If it's tail heavy it won't fly or will soon crash. Too nose heavy and they are hard to get to loop, want to land fast, and won't do certain stunts. Typical COG points on a plane wing with a 6" cord (width) is roughly 2" back from the leading edge. If COG is off it won't fly or handle nearly as good as it should. Same deal with detector shafts. Leverage or balance is as important as weight IMO. When you see somebody twirl a baton they hold it dead center because that's were it balances out. Same deal with the detector ideally balances at the grip or say about 2 to 4" past it towards the coil.

 

[otlew]

Wouldn't the ideal balance be, when holding the grip the coil and control box would be balanced? Imagine placing the detector shaft in a U shaped fixture just underneath the grip have the assembly be horizontal and in perfect balance. Or say just a little heavier on the coil end so as to exert some force at the cuff into the arm to make it stable. Ergonomics have not been a major design concern for most manufacturers as far I can tell.

Dave Johnson of First Texas (Bounty Hunter, Fisher, and Teknetics) stated in a thread here that the Teknetics T2 was the first and only detector (so far) that was designed from the ground up to be ergonomic.

 

[Critterhunter]

If it's balanced right at the grip then that's fine, but I believe having it balancing a bit down from there about 2 to 4" towards the coil is even better. That way if you just grab the grip the machine will naturally balance so that the coil is in it's normal downward hunting position. I got lucky because with all the weight saving mods I did to mine it will do that. It's balance is about 2 or 3" down from the hand grip. Balance can be just as important as weight I think in terms of wearing on you as you hunt.

I like the idea of whoever is selling those extensions that plug into the back of the stock shaft and all the box to be mounted then about a foot or so behind the elbow. With a stock weight Sovereign I bet that really helps with ease of use.

The other thing I feel is important is proper shaft extension and grip position. I've seen too many people hunting where the shaft was adjusted either too short or too long. With it too short you'll find yourself hunching over to keep the coil near the ground. Ideally I think your back should be as straight as possible and your arm also as straight as possible. Putting a bend in either makes you use muscles you shouldn't have to. I've got mine adjusted to the perfect height to where my back and arm are straight and the coil is just off the ground nipping the top of the grass. I don't worry about having extra length in the shaft so that I can sweep widely. I feel too many people are always busy trying to get where they ain't, and they often will cause you to not cover where you are as well and perhaps miss deep fringe targets. My main concern is the ground directly in front of my feet in no more than about a 3 foot wide span, perhaps a half a foot off to the sides of both of my feet. With your back straight and your arm for the most part straight the arm cup should be right at about the elbow area too.

The other big issue I think is proper grip placement. With your wrist straight and the arm cup at about the elbow the grip should just fit flattly in your hand. I've seen a lot of people who have the grip in the wrong spot like say too close and so they are bending their wrist to shorten their arm length. That will also wear on you. With your arm and wrist straight like you are about to shake somebody's hand the grip should just lay flat in your palm. Little things like this can make a big difference on a long day's hunt.

While I'm thinking about it, somebody recently in the last few days wrote a message I wanted to remark on concerning using a towel under their arm so the grip would fit easier in their hand I think. That sounds like you don't have the grip at the right length. But what I really wanted to point out is to make sure you have the stock grip on the right way. When I bought my GT used I saw that the previous owner had reversed the grip on the shaft. Now instead of the top of the grip angled like it should pointing towards the coil, they had the grip on backwards to where the top of the grip was pointing towards them. The base was further away, and so now it's causing your hand to have to pivot up and backwards in an uncomfortable position. I didn't notice this at first until I started to notice that my hand was pretty darn uncomfortable. The stock grip isn't the best in the world to begin with, and flipping it backwards really makes things worse. I love these bike end bars made from aluminum. They are hallow and light, and you can find the perfect rubber grip cover for a bike to go over them. The one I put on my water rig is really comfortable. The one I used on my land rig ain't bad but since they come in pairs I may use the other one in the pair from my water rig to put on my land one. You can see pictures of these in the Custom Light Weight GT thread.

 

[JHM]

I plan to remove the cover soon. I've got it balanced fairly, well but any time I can shed some weight at the end of the shaft I'm goin to do it. For some reason concentric coils are built lighter than the same size DD.

 

[otlew]

I did some testing with the Ace 250, such as extending the shaft and moving the cuff back to a more comfortable position nearer the elbow. I also created an extension using aluminum tubing that had adjustable lead weight to move the center of balance (this was never meant to be permanent just for gathering data) .

I hung the detector and using a digital fish weighing scale determine the amount of downward force required to bring the grip point to near balance, slightly biased toward the coil. Further I also discovered that if I simply fixed the strap on the cuff and rested my arm on the strap it would better align my arm parallel with the shaft.

Once last thing was to install the elliptical coil backwards thereby decreasing its extension length, amazingly it made a noticeable difference. It was tip that someone else posted here in a thread about ergonomics, sorry I can't remember who to give credit for this tip.

I have since moved on to the Sovereign so I have no further interest in the Ace. When the weather turns bad and hunting is limited I will begin testing on the Sovereign to see what fits me best and increases comfort. I see a lot of good ideas posted here and will probably effect most of those and maybe come up with one or two of my own.

 

[Critterhunter]

If you don't get rid of that 250 I hear they are about the deepest Garretts made up until now. Many people like them for even water hunting. I remember reading about one guy who mounts the box in a hat when in the water. You might consider sticking that puppy in a waterproof box and using it as a water machine. Then again, the Sovereign also lends it's self to doing this.

It was me about flipping the coil backwards probably. I've read that elsewhere over the years concerning mainly the Explorer to help balance it out. Why companies would mount the shaft on a coil towards the back is beyond me. Dead center is best. If anything they should mount the shaft more towards the front of the coil because that makes it less nose heavy. That's why guys flip them backwards.

 

[otlew]

If you don't get rid of that 250 I hear they are about the deepest Garretts made up until now. Many people like them for even water hunting. I remember reading about one guy who mounts the box in a hat when in the water. You might consider sticking that puppy in a waterproof box and using it as a water machine. Then again, the Sovereign also lends it's self to doing this.

Funny you should mention the 250 and depth. A fellow hunter swears he dug a quarter at 11 inches at the local beach with his Ace 250. It was an old clad coin which probably had a good size halo.

I plan to keep mine, it is a good backup and I have the sniper coil for the trashy areas. For the money it works as advertised.

 

[synthnut]

I'm reading this thread and thinking about balance and the role it plays in the angle of the rod, and how the coil hit's the ground ....The balancing point is called the fulcrum .....If you have a moveable fulcrum , you can balance the detector any way you want ..... Get yourself a Swingy Thingy ( an elastic cord that connects to the rod and helps you hold the coil up ) and adjust it anywhere you want on the shaft depending on the weight of whatever coil you are using ....... Even the heaviest of coils will be more balanced and much easier to swing due to the Swingy Thingy holding up most of the weight !!...... You can put your grip wherever it's comfortable for you ..... and you don't have to add unessasary weight to the machine just to balance it out ....Jim

 

[Critterhunter]

Don't need a Swingy Thingy when I've got my GT built this light. In fact, I have to hold it down in a gust of wind or it might blow away. One idea for those using the Swingy Thingy- I saw some Sovereign owner a while back said it clips it right to that finger strap on the grip. That's a really good idea. Now the balance point is right at the grip.

This reminds me- A while back I saw a guy build a two or three wheel cart for hunting the beaches. He mounted his detector on it with the coil of course sticking out the front. With the two or three wheels he could pivot the thing for normal sweeping over targets. Now that's a great idea for all of us when we get real old and can't really hunt in normal fashion anymore. The cart also acts as a walker. My only addition to this idea would be a seat at the back of the cart that is low to the ground. That way you could sit down a bit off the ground for comfort and dig your hole if you needed to do that and couldn't use a sand scoop for whatever reason.

 

[synthnut]

Critter.
Im talking the Swingy Thingy more for balance than for the weight .....You wouldn't be fighting the balance of the coil with the Swingy Thingy on it ...... Otherwise you would have a heavy 12 x 15 hanging off the front of the shaft and you would be fighting it to keep it in position ......Heck if I"m detecting where I need a walker / cart . I"ll have a wheel chair with balloon tires on it , and I'll have some hot babe pushing me along the sand while I have my detector working ..........Jim