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Anyone use alkalines?

Mike T

Member
All this battery charge-recharge-decharge stuff is causing a brain tumor, I swear Ive never seen something so complicated as using a re-chargeable of some kind in a Sovereign. I got an old XS and I'm new to using BBS and trying to figure out what kind of battery to use and how to charge it is taking the fun out of it for me. I'm starting to think maybe I should have got a Vaquero.
What about Alkalines? can they be bought cheap enough to make them worthwhile?
 
The Energizer lithium non-rechargeables are popular in some detecting circles. They cost a bit more at wallmart and such then regular batteries but are worth the extra money as they'll give roughly 2 to 4 times the amount of run time, more than making up for the extra cost of them over regular batteries. A friend of mine gave me a bunch of them he got for free somewhere and I used them in stuff from electric toothbrushes to my pocket camcorder and other devices. My friend also uses them in his metal detectors and I can say that all of these devices are running much longer between battery swaps. My friend remarked how impressed he was with the run time in his detectors for one thing, and I can tell you my electric toothbrush and pocket camcorder and such ran on them a lot longer than regular batteries too. They are also super light so they'll save you some weight in your detector.

One friend runs them in his Etrac but the only thing is the Etrac is picky about it's voltage being a bit too high, so the first time he tried them new in it it said "input over voltage error" and shut down but it didn't hurt the machine. Now he just runs them in a flashlight or something for a few minutes to take the edge off the voltage and then throws them in his Etrac and they work fine. These batteries have a slightly higher voltage than regular batteries for the first few minutes of use so in most detectors they shouldn't be a problem even without draining them a tad. I think I do remember running them in my GT for a while without issues and also I know I ran them in my QXT Pro without problems. Just a tad higher in voltage for the first few minutes, but most DC powered devices have voltage regulators in them that can tolerate a pretty wide window of a bit too high or low voltages without issues.

One warning about them. The voltage stays up like they are good batteries all the way until the very end of the discharge, so when they do give out it's usually without warning. The voltage on a machine will seem like the batteries still have a lot of life left in them but then suddenly the low battery alarm will sound. Regular batteries will drop the voltage more uniform as they drain to give you a warning that they are getting low but these won't look near dead and then suddenly die without warning. My friend got stuck in the woods with dead batteries like that a few times because when he checked before the hunt the battery voltage seemed to show them not being near dead as they hold the voltage higher during the the draining.

If you want to use rechargeables but keep it real simple some have run 8AA nimhs (shoot for 2500ma or higher) in the Sovereign and get fine run times out of it. Just go to walmart and get the energizers that come with a simple charger. Kered reported he was getting longer run times in his GT and Sovereign XS than the stock rechargeable packs I think, and he wasn't topping off the pack right before a hunt either. Many nimhs will self drain if they sit on the shelf for weeks or months but there are many now that are called "low self-discharge" nimhs. Those are the ones to shoot for if you don't want to re-peak your pack before every hunt if the pack has sat for a while.
 
I've used the Alkalines from Costco before. I used to get about 10-12 hours with them in my other detectors. They were a store brand and were $8-$9 for a 40 pack.
 
Go to Lowe's they have 100 pack of AA alkaline batteries for $22, I use them and they last as long as the name brands,

John
 
Someone gave me a 8 year old(brand new) Sun-ray battery pack for the XS. The consensus is its dead, any harm in trying to charge it? I have a MAHA MH-C777PLUS-2 universal charger and analyser. I got it for something else and never got around to using it. Can I charge the Sun-ray pack on it?
 
Just see how much amps that charger puts out. What's the capacity of the pack? Anything above the capacity of the pack (meaning say 1 amp for a 1000ma pack) is risky, but if it's not say twice that then you should be OK. And, some packs won't charge when dead because some chargers won't "see" them, so if that charger won't charge it it doesn't mean the pack is no good. So long as that charger is for the type of battery (nimh or nicad or both) then you should be OK, so long as it ain't blasting it with say two times the pack capacity or higher in terms of amps. Actually, I've charged packs that high or higher but the higher you go the more risky. Put in fire safe place and keep and eye on it, and feel the pack for it getting super hot. If it is then stop the charge. Might take a few charges/drains for the pack to come back to life. Look at the battery sticky for links on how to excercise the pack.
 
The Sunray pack is 1650 mah and it says to charge 27.5 hour from low battery alert. The charger says its 800mah +/- 50mah, trickle current is 70ma.Voltage supported; 1.2V to 14.4V (1 to 12 cells nimh)
I have no idea what it all means but its supposed to be a good charger. It has a digital display of voltage and capacity throughout charge cycle.
 
Sounds like your golden. That charger sounds perfect for that pack. Amp rate of 800ma is roughly 1/2 capacity (C) of the pack, so it's being nice and easy on it and should about 2 hours to charge a completely dead pack, but in reality charge times might take another half hour or hour for the pack due to the inefficieny of the charging process and also because a good pack will often hold a good bit higher capacity than the label says. For that reason, don't panic if the capacity counter is showing higher capacity than the pack is labeled for and still isn't done charging. Just stick your hand on the pack and see if it's getting hot. Warm is OK and normal but never super hot. That could mean it's being over charged and missed the pack's peak. The pack should be 10 cells so it's right in the range for that charger. Having a capacity readout on a charger is a great thing. It lets you monitor the life of the pack. Down the road if a dead pack charged up doesn't seem to hold as much capacity as it did before then time to excercise it for more capacity (see battery sticky for links on that). If the capacity doesn't come back after 3 to 5 cycles of excersize then the lower capacity is a sign the pack is going down hill in run time, but doesn't mean you still won't get several more years of use out of it. Just means shorter run times.

The Sunray charge time is either talking about charging with the stock charger or perhaps the Sunray charger, but probably not that because I think the Sun Ray charges faster than that. Don't pay attention to that number unless you are using the charger (probably the stock one) it's talking about. If your aftermarket charger has self-shutoff when charged then no worries about how long it should be charging.

Notice how the charger says 800ma during charge and then a 70ma trickle rate. What that means is when the pack has peaked the main charging rate will shut off and it will switch to a trickle charge. That's what I've been telling these guys. The stock wall "charger" is just a transformer puttng out a constant trickle charge. That low of a charge rate is needlessly slow and is only because then (at least for the Xcal or Sovereigns prior to the Elite/GT) the "charger" doesn't have to have circuits in it to tell when the pack is peaked and shut off the current. It's a cheap way to charge a pack. No need (far as I can tell, but never owned an Xcal or an older Sovereign) for any charging circuits between the wall transformer and the pack, so Minelab saves money that way. Even on the Elite/GT I'm still not sure yet if the little circuit inside the pack is shutting off the current when it's peaked or not. I need to look into that.

That's why I tell people to never let your pack sit on the charger for days unless you are sure it cuts off the current when charged. That's not good for a battery. Well, it's OK for Nicads (but I still don't like doing it) but most say should never be done with nimhs as it slowly destroys them. Once they are peaked they don't like being fed a trickle charge.

Oh, by the way...Is that Sun Ray a Nimh pack, because you said the charger is for nimhs. It's never a good idea to charge nimhs on a nicad only charger or nicads on a nimhs only charger. Well, you might still be OK even if that's a nicad pack. Let me explain real quick...When a nimh or nicad peaks it will show that peak by dropping in voltage a good bit. There are normal drops here and there during charging but those are fake peaks. The drop when peaked will be much bigger (revolves around a thing called m/v threshold setting).

Now nimhs will make shorter up and down dips when charging than nicads will. And when the nimh is fully charged it will drop less in voltage than a nicad will when it's charged. So, if you stuck a nimh pack on a nicad charger it might never see a big enough drop in the voltage when the pack is peaked to recognize the pack is charged and turn the charge off, so it might never see that and overcharge the pack.

On the other hand, if you use a nicad pack on a nimh charger there is less risk of missing that drop in voltage to tell the pack is peaked because obviously the nicad will drop more in voltage so the charger will probably for sure see that (because it's only looking for an even smaller dip in voltage of a nimh when peaked).

So that sounds safe, right? Sure, probably is safe(er) to charge a nicad on a nimh charger. Only problem is this...Because the Nicad has bigger dips here and there when charging than a nimh, there is a good chance the nimh charger will see one of those dips during charging and think the pack is done charging and shut off.

See what I mean? The nicad dips more up and down when charging than a nimh does. And the nicad will drop in voltage more when peaked than a nimh will. So the bigger dips while charging of a nicad probaby will fool the nimh charger and shut off early. And, as said, if using a nimh on a nicad charger it might never see a big enough dip at the end of the charge to shut off.

Oh, by the way. Some cheap chargers won't recognize a completely dead pack to start charging it. if that happens it doesn't mean the pack is bad. Just means you might have to force feed it some voltage for a few minutes (like say from a 12V source...like the stock wall transformer perhaps because it doesn't "think", just puts out current) on something else. Then you can throw it on the charger you want to use and it should have no problem seeing it then. And, you might have to charge/drain dead that pack 5 or 6 times to get any kind of capacity out of it. Since your charger has a capacity display, keep charging/draining it until you stop seeing gains in capacity on the meter. Then you know it's been excercised enough. Use a car tail light bulb to drain it dead and then let it sit on that after the light goes out for about 20 minutes to make sure all cells are at equal discharge to each other, then charge it again, drain, and so on.

Don't let people tell you a nimh or nicad pack that has sat for 10 years is no good. I've recovered cordless drill packs that have sat for years for people. Many times their stock chargers for the drill just won't see the pack and refuse to charge it. My Accucel 6 charger won't let the pack "get away with that". :biggrin: So far I have yet to not be able to save on old drill pack that has sat for years, and I've done several of them for people. They just need charged/drained 5 or 6 times to get the capacity back in them.

[size=large]All that said, way better to just use the proper charger for the right battery type. Make sure you charge in a fire proof place like in the middle of a cement floor outside if you can't keep an eye on it during charging/draining. And again, use my advice at your own risk because you could very well blow yourself up, ruin your machine, or burn your house down, or maybe even worse than all that. :biggrin:[/size]
 
Its a complex issue but I'm starting to get a handle on it.Thanks for breaking it down so even I can understand. This is a Universal charger for all kinds of batteries, it has all kind of attachments so I'm sure I can follow the directions.
By the way I see Maxpaxx has Sovereign XS NIMH pacs for $59 so if I can't bring mine back through exercising I can always get the Maxpaxx.
 
You might also do some looking around, as there are places that specialize in RC planes/car packs that will build nimh or nicad packs for just about anything dirt cheap. If the pack isn't tied to the inside of a battery holder (like it is on the Elite/GT), then you could just send them a picture of the pack and they'll build it from there. You'd need to know the polarity of the plug though, which a cheap $5 volt meter usually will tell you if it's not noted on the plug or the control box. Most volt meters will say negative "-"voltage if the polarity is reversed when checking something.

There are some sources for some really cheap nimhs or nicad cells out there with super high capacity in RC circles. You can get Sub-C cells (which I think at least the XS might have used based on the pics I've seen) these days in the 4000 to 7000ma capacity range I think now. Sub-As (which at least the Elite and GT use) maybe up to 3000 to 4000ma or so. If you don't know what size the cells are just put a quarter next to them for scale when you send them a picture. But you might want to have them build the pack with smaller says (like say Sub-As or maybe AAs) to get the weight down, because Sub-Cs weigh a ton, and Sub-As weigh a good bit more than AAs I think. AAs can be had in I think 3000 to 4000ma at least now.

The capacity of all these cells keeps going up year after year so it's hard to keep current unless you've been shopping around. I remember back when Sub-As in the 900ma range were the norm. Then 1000ma. Then 1500ma, and so on. That's why I say, using 1000ma Sub-As in the Elite/Gt is like 15 year old technology at least. Much higher capacity cells these days, and they could have used smaller cells to save weight because an AA or even an AAA can easily match 1000ma now and that would save a ton of weight. In fact, I think I saw in this forum a while back where some guy re-built his GT pack using AAA cells to save a bunch of weight, as 10 AAs won't fit in the holder I don't think, so it's either use 10 Sub As or 10 AAAs.

They only need to know how many cells and if they are all in series, which means 10 cells in series on all Sovereigns far as I know. I know the GT and Elite use 10 in the stock rechargeable packs, as does I think the XS. I'm sure they all do, but I'm just saying those are the ones I've seen with my own eyes. They all should have the same voltage requirements far as I know, but I haven't seen the internals of the packs on a few older Sovereign models with my own eyes to make that a 100% statement as fact. Never assume, 'cuz you know what happens when you do that. :biggrin:

If that's a universal charger make sure that means it does nimhs and nicads, because some just mean they'll charge anything of nimh variety but not nicads, or vise versa. Usually though it does mean they do nimhs and nicads.

Also, you might have to charge/drain that pack 6 or 7 times to restore the capacity. Just today I was repairing a garage and the cordless circular saw I dug out of the garage last night to use wasn't holding a charge as it hadn't been used in about 6 years or so. I had to force feed it a charge on my aftermarket charger because the stock charger refused to charge it. It's normal charge rate was 500ma but I fed it 2 amps because I was in a hurry (It's about a 1500ma pack). I then drained it with the circular saw again, charged it again, and did all that one more time to get any kind of real capacity out of it. Otherwise it was only holding about 500ma and would only run the circular saw for a minute or two. Now that capacity is back up around 1600 to 1800ma, a bit higher than the 1500ma on the label. A sign that means its still in good shape, but I'm sure if I excercise it another couple of times like that it'll get even better.
 
The XS rechargeable packs were 10 of the AA batteries in them that were Ni Cads, the XS2 and the XS2a look to be smaller packs and in a hard case so I couldn't see how many batteries were in them, but felt they were AAA in order to get 10 in the pack. Sun Rays and a pack by Only Batteries used 10 of the Nickle hydride's AA batteries in their pack, The Elite and GT used a battery that was shorter then a C cell, but were as big around. I feel the Elite and GT battery packs were the heaviest of all the rechargeable battery packs Minelab had.

Rick
 
Rick, you would know so I'm sure your right, but then what Sovereign model are these pics for below? I assumed they were from the XS? These look like Sub-C cells to me because they look a bit fatter and stubbier than Sub-As but it's hard to judge with nothing in the pic for scale. I just posted a thread the other day with a few pics of older Sovereign packs and they looked like Sub-C and not even Sub-A from the pics? I'm not arguing any point here, just wanting to clear up that mystery of the pics as to what Sovereign they go to? :shrug:

The first pic are the Sub-As used in the Elite/GT packs. The second two pics...which Sovereign is that pack for? And do those cells look like Sub-Cs to anybody? To me they do by judging the general size/shape compared to the sub-As in the first pic but hard to tell. I do see a "C" on the cells in print but that could mean anything like capacity so that doesn't tell me they are Sub-Cs for sure. Whatever machine those cells go to, for sure if I had to have a pack built I'd got to at least Sub-As or AAs as Sub-Cs are a pig in weight, even more so than Sub-As...

And here's that thread...

http://www.findmall.com/read.php?21,1751421

First pic is Sub-As used in Elite/Gt. Second pic look like Sub-Cs but hard to judge without something in the pic for scale. What machine is that pack for and do you guys think they look bigger than Sub-As, because if they do they are Sub-Cs.
 
The First picture looks like the inside of the GT pack, but the case is different color, Elites were silver, GT were blue and the Advantage I believe was a different color blue too and not black I don't think, so I wonder if it could be for a Eureka which is basically uses the same battery pack. The batteries look correct to the GT pack I had apart other than the circuity which is not shown as the case is not open all the way.
The other pack sure looks like a XS2 or XS2 drop in pack and never had one apart myself, but know it is smaller then the GT pack. The XS used a plug in pack and you can plainly see the 10 AA cell in the shrink wrap that held them together and these too looked wider then the XS2 and XS2a packs.
Not sure what is considered Sub C or Sub A, but the ones I bought for the GT pack I thought were something like 2/3 A they were called and were 2500 MhA. Had a tough time getting the 10 batteries all solder together as they had the tabs, but getting them all to fit in like the factory ones was though and when I did I must have shorted it out as it went up in smoke and fire. I did a charge with the pack out of the case and they were fine, but in the pack something shorted out when I slide the case shut. Still have the batteries and they are the same size as the Minelab ones I took out, but one got so hot it melted the plastic covering on the battery.
 
Yea, as I stated but don't know if you missed it (?)...The first pic are for sure Sub-As. Same size cells in the Elite/GT, but you are right the plastic color looks different than the Elite or GT, so I'm not sure what machine those were in, but I've had the GT pack apart and it's the exact same Sub-A cells and exact same color (nimhs are usually green to signify they are nimhs, but not always).

The second pack there I dug out of this forum or the modifications forum, but they were said to be for a Sovereign but don't think they mentioned what model in the thread I found them in. I'm just saying those cells look a bit fatter/stubbier to me than Sub-As but it's hard to tell without something like a coin in the picture to judge size. They might be Sub-As but sure do hint to being Sub-Cs to me.

"Sub A" or "Sub C" is slang in RC for various cells among some circles. Some do call Sub-As 2/3rd AAs or something but at least the circles I run in call them Sub-As, and the bigger/fatter cells are called Sub-C by some of us at least, and in fact aren't as big around as a C sized cell (from memory here, haven't handled them out of a pack in a while) and are shorter than C cells, where as Sub-As are thicker than AAs and of course shorter than them, but as said Sub-Cs are not as fat as C cells but Sub- As are fatter than AA cells. Sub-Cs are bigger/fatter than Sub-As and a whole lot heavier.

So if I understand you right the XS for sure had 10 AAs in it because you could see them through the shrink wrap. Then you are saying the XS2 and XS2a had a smaller looking pack but you never took it apart to see what was in there, but that it looked not as big as the GT/Elite pack? Sub Cs aren't nearly as long as AA cells. The GT/Elite empty chamber on the side for the charging circuit might explain the size difference of the XS2 and XS2a packs compared to the Elite/Gt pack *maybe* even if the XS2 and 2A were using Sub-Cs...But the more I look at the picture now I am leaning towards those cells maybe being Sub-As. That would make perfect sense for sure, because lacking a charge circuit separate chamber in the pack (I guess) on the XS2/2A, using Sub-As the pack would for sure be smaller than the GT/Elite Sub A pack due to the extra charge circuit chamber, and don't know if sub-Cs would still be smaller than the Elite/GT pack even without the charging circuit chamber.

Anybody other there with an XS2 or 2A that can tell us what size cells are in the pack. If you don't know stick a quarter or something next to the cells so we have a better chance to gage the actual size of them.

I could have swore Kered told me his older Sovereign had Sub-Cs in it but I don't remember which machine it was when he was converting to a lipo in it. I'll see if I can dig up that thread and look because I think he took pictures of the old cells before converting to a lipo or something.
 
Rick, here, I dug up Kered's pics of his XS-2a Pro stock pack from Minelab. They sure look like Sub-C cells to me. Do they look bigger/fatter than Sub-A cells in the GT/Elite to you? They do to me but can't say for sure? If they are then this would jive with it all...10 regular AAs in the XS, Sub-As in the GT/Elite. I'm guessing now the XS2 and 2A used 10 Sub-C cells? If it did then that's a pig of a boat anchor. Even heavier than Sub-As. One could save a bunch of weight by using Sub-As or possibly even regular AAs will fit and you'd still have much longer run times these days by buying high capacity cells. I think those old Sovereigns had like 800ma packs? Even if they were 1000ma like the GT, if people shoot for say 2000ma or higher cells they'll easily doube the run time or more depending on what size they opt for. The capacity of cells these days...AAs, Sub-As, Sub-Cs...All of them you can get in like 4 to 8 times the capacity about then you could back in the day.

So check these out...Look bigger than Sub-As to you? They do to me but not 100% sure with nothing in the pic to gage size. This was Kered's XS-2a stock pack...
 
Critter,

If you call those in the Elite and GT pack a Sub A than those in the XS2 and XS2a would have to be Sub A too or smaller as I don't remember it being very thick at all and know the pack was light weight is why I thought it to be AAA batteries in it as this pack was not as wide as the XS pack, but a little longer looking. I wish I had a XS2 pack here to look inside of it to see on the batteries and post a picture of them along side of the ones out of the GT, like I say if you call the ones in the GT Sub A than the XS2 must have been too, but I don't remember it being that thick as many of us had to put a little foam on top of the cover to hold the battery tight.. The battery door and compartment was the same as the XS inside, but the XS2 had the drop in battery and the XS had the plug in battery. The factory XS pack was 750 Ma and the XS2 I believe was 800 or so and the GT was 1000.
 
Maybe there were both AAA packs and Sub-C ones for that machine you could get that would fit the battery compartment?

But by the sound of it as you say then they are Sub-As I guess maybe. From those last few pics though they sure look to me like Sub-Cs. Just a bit fatter than Sub As, but as said hard to tell from a pic. I'm going to dig through some old Kered threads where he was converting to a lipo and see if he posted more pics of them with some scale in the picture or stated they were Sub-Cs or something. If I find anything worth mentioning I'll post it here.
 
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