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Another slam against us honest guys.....LONG

Steve In Michigan

Active member
This is from our local newspaper. Is this happening anywhere else? We cant D'tect on State Land without a Permit....yeah like they're gonna do that!!



Treasure hunters loot state's past


By ERIC FREEDMAN
Capital News Service


LANSING -- From an abandoned farmstead on national forest land near Cadillac to the chill waters of the Straits of Mackinac, plunderers are looting bits and pieces of Michigan's historical heritage.

"We call it vandalism by treasure hunters," said John Franzen, an archaeologist at Hiawatha National Forest in the central and eastern Upper Peninsula. "Logging camps have been the target, both in past years for bottles and in more recent years for metal objects such as tools and coins."

"Years ago it was mainly bottle collecting. With the advent of metal detectors, it's taken a big change," Franzen said.

In the most recently discovered incident, artifact-hunters dug about 300 holes at the Hemlock Grove Farm site in Wexford County, about 25 miles from Cadillac in the Huron-Manistee National Forest, which sprawls for 987,000 acres in the northern Lower Peninsula.

"This farm, unless you knew it was there and you get off the trail and walked 100 yards and kicked around a while, you probably wouldn't know it's there unless you did some historical research," said Kenneth Arbogast, a spokesman for the Huron-Manistee.

John Davis, a Huron-Manistee archaeologist, said some sites, like Hemlock Grove, "have a lot of stuff on them. The whole gamut of domestic and industrial and disposable artifacts that are durable and preservable are there. It's in the yard, it's under the tree, it's everywhere."

The Hemlock Grove theft is under investigation by the U.S. Forest Service. Investigators are following up on calls from citizens who saw vehicles near the farm site.

In an even more blatant incident, thieves stole an authentic 16-foot birch bark canoe from a museum display in the Ottawa National Forest visitor center in Watersmeet, in the western Upper Peninsula.

The 2002 crime remains unsolved.

Motives vary

Thieves' motives vary, said Wayne Lusardi, the state's Alpena-based maritime archaeologist.

"Some people are ignorant of the laws and want a little piece, a memento. Others are fully aware it's illegal but it's for a personal collection, and others look at from a financial gain point of view," Lusardi said, adding that many artifacts from Great Lakes shipwrecks "are sold under the table and not through online services" such as eBay.

Said Davis, of the Huron-Manistee: "You have to do a lot of work for a little return" because most people who lived on long-abandoned farms had little money. "Once in a great, great, great while they'll find a locket or a coin. They're not finding gold, they're not finding rare coins, they're not finding diamond rings."

State-owned public lands are vulnerable, especially on the 3.8 million acres of forestland.

"It's difficult to quantify because there are so many places, particularly in the state forests," state archaeologist John Halsey said. "There's very little control we can exert over it.

"It's theft of state property at its simplest level. People think if it's on state land, 'it belongs to me,' Halsey said. "If you're going to do archaeology or artifact recovery on state land, you have to do it on a permit."

Underwater treasures eyed

Some thieves have their eye on underwater treasures, artifacts from an untold number of shipwrecks within Michigan's 11 Great Lakes preserves that cover 2,450 square miles.

"There's always stuff disappearing off shipwrecks -- it's more accessible and visible," Halsey said. "We do occasionally hear about these things, and conscientious divers do report when something is missing, but you almost have to catch people in the act to make a prosecution stick."

Lt. Dave Davis of the Department of Natural Resources' law enforcement division recalled the case of a sports diver who had looted a wreck in the Straits of Mackinac that connects lakes Huron and Michigan. The diver's wife ratted him out during a divorce, and the investigation led to recovery of artifacts, a criminal conviction and a fine.

The difficulty in safeguarding artifacts is evident.

For example, the joint federal-state Thunder Bay National Maritime Preserve in Lake Huron alone has at least 50 of the known 1,500 shipwrecks in Michigan waters.

"There's no sign-in sheet at shipwrecks. We don't know who's been there," Dave Davis said.

Hiawatha's Franzen said archeological information is valuable in helping the public understand the past, and the looting of artifacts damages sites destroys information that "is not in the history books, not in the archives.

"Even loggers, trappers, homesteaders, all they have left behind is this material record," that can be used to understand their food, their lifestyles and "their adaptability to life on the frontier up here."
 
Oh I forgot to add this in my ramblings....They whine, cry, and kitty kitty kitty, over all the "Artifacts" being taken yet they dont even know whats there in the first damn place!! And just exactly what is considered a "Artifact" If you look up the Dictionary term it is pretty much anything man made.....So here's is a great way to get around the so called "Immanent Domain" clause. If the city or government wants to take your farm for a shopping mall just bury a spoon or something in the backyard and say "Sorry cant do it, There's Artifacts buried here!!" Sorry for rambling but it just P*sses me off that they do this and the guys that looted the farm if they didnt leave holes like a backhoe had been there I think nobody would have said a word.
 
A big company has a ship that sinks and they abandon it. What happened to savage rights. What makes the state say its theirs. It is kind of dumb that some poor jerk dies and his shack becomes a national artifact. His illegal garbage dump becomes treasure. The government owns you and all you think you own. period!!
 
Every example in your article referenced treasure hunters breaking the law. I find it interesting that you seem to imply that honest people can break the law and yet some how remain "honest people." Or, are you suggesting that somehow there is a difference between "honest people" "recovering" a few coins and whatzits for their personal detecting collection, and the "criminals" who "loot" for profit. I know, I know ... I understand that the basic premise of your post is that both the laws and the archaeologists are unfair. On that point I think we agree. First off, keep in mind that national forests are federal lands. My understanding is that it is a crime to even posses a detector on federal lands. But as far as state land goes, if you were in charge of archeology for the state lands of Michigan what would you do? Just letting everyone take anything and everything isn't a very good plan.

Archaeologists are responsible for identifying and preserving history and it's artifacts. Like it or not, every homestead and logging camp has it's own little story to tell. If you're honest with yourself you'll have to admit that these little stories that we find are what makes detecting so much fun. Personally, I think that requiring a permit for state lands is the only sensible way to go. I live in Michigan too, and I can't even pick up fallen trees on state land for firewood without a permit. So if I can't just simply take deadwood, why should I be allowed to take pieces of history?

Unfortunately, it has been well documented in many newspaper articles and metal detecting forums that there is much animosity between treasure hunters and archaeologists. Both sides believe that the other is screwing with them. Funny thing is that they both share a love of history and bringing it to life. But neither side is willing to look at it from the others point of view. So the archaeologists just clamp down with a variety of laws to try to protect everything. In turn, the detectorists squeal that their God given right to dig lost stuff has been violated. It all boils down to the archaeologists trying to do their job, and the detectorists claiming the age old "finders keepers, losers weepers" law.

In my opinion England has the best solution to this problem. They require everything found to be reviewed by an archaeologist. If it has historical significance they keep the artifact, but they pay you for the item. And if they keep the artifact I believe that they even give the finder credit for the discovery if it goes into a museum. If the artifact has no historical significance they catalog and record the artifact, then they return it to the finder. With this system everybody wins. Detectorists are free to detect in a much greater number of places. Archaeologists get a bunch of free labor finding and recovering artifacts.

So Steve, I share your frustration that so much prime detecting land is off limits to honest detectorists. But I would not be in favor of just opening all public lands to unrestricted metal detecting. And I am equally opposed to the current system of just making all public land off limits too. If I had a magic wand I'd create a system similar to what England has and fund it with an annual public land detecting permit. Make it self funding, much like the DNR does with hunting.

I know that this will not be a popular post in a forum like this, so please feel free to start blasting away at me. I'll quietly return to my lurking status now. ;)
 
It gets logged, you get a fair price if its a valuable, we maintain a reputation in good standing. A win-win situation for everybody!
 
I understand all that. I guess I forgot to mention that all over the local news they were making it sound like everyone that owns a metal detector is no good. I do like the England idea very much but I kinda have to agree with John 'n'
 
http://www.addictionus.com/content.php?cid=1653&state=Arkansas

<img src="http://canadianmetaldetecting.com/images/smiles/duh1.gif">
 
That's quite a story - I never knew! I've been hunting arrow heads for some time and have only found 1. That won't even buy me a cup of coffee! Well, now people are going to say about me scratching the bark chips - hey look Mom, there's one of those crack heads digging for pennies! If they only knew that I was only full of beer! :rofl:
 
In the early 1960's the person taking the most relics from a local Civil War battlefield
convinced state historians and archaeologist that metal detectorist were stealing the
state history and they should get a law passed to stop it. They did and the guy that
got them to pass the law was able to steal the rest of the stuff for himself. I was one
of the outlaws that got very little because the real outlaw was running us out. That's
story number one. Number two follows.
I purchased my first metal detector shortly after Charles Garrett started making them.
I drove from Baton Rouge to Houston Texas. That's were the dealer was. The dealer ran a Service Station and the auto service bays were closed to house his Metal Detector business and finds. He had one bay completely filled with his finds. They were not metal but Indian stuff. He proud showed me several pieces of perfect pottery. This stuff came from Mesa Verde National Park (Colorado). This guy worked for a Archaeologist from the New Mexico State University. She (the archaeologist) had a grant from the federal government to recover stuff from the caves (Indian ruins). Long story short; it was one for the government, one for the archaeologist, and one for the dealer. I personally don't think legally stealing is and better than just stealing.
 
I know of ex-national park rangers that MDed at a few very choice places. They let each other do it. Oops I said too much.
It happens all the time. You and I can get a speeding ticket, but how about a cop getting one. I have family members who are cops. It is a joke when it comes to them getting a ticket. Tell me a cop won't show his badge when he gets pulled over.:rofl:
Money talks and if you are in the same brotherhood you can walk.
Where is the person with integrity?
 
[quote John 'n' W.Va]I know of ex-national park rangers that MDed at a few very choice places. They let each other do it. Oops I said too much.
It happens all the time. You and I can get a speeding ticket, but how about a cop getting one. I have family members who are cops. It is a joke when it comes to them getting a ticket. Tell me a cop won't show his badge when he gets pulled over.:rofl:
Money talks and if you are in the same brotherhood you can walk.
Where is the person with integrity? [/quote]
Right here Big John:rofl:
 
Last year I had found on Google Earth what looked like an old foundation in a wooded area behind a neighborhood near my office. The land showed as a community preserved "green land". I went after work one day with my metal detector to check out the area, and discovered a BMX bicycle track, with old house foundations made into ramps and track. I found some interesting old colonial coins, Indian Heads, blacksmith tools and other interesting artifacts. I spoke to some of the teens who were riding bikes and they told me they found old coins and also smashed clay pipes and old bottles that they had found.

As I was leaving the area, a resident asked what I was doing there. After I explained, she said it was wrong what I was doing and the area was very historical. She also said she was on the historic committee, and would call the police if I was seen in the area again, and she took a picture of my car tags with her digital camera. I asked her if she had been back there and seen the BMX trails. To my amazement she told me that her son was one of the people who made the track!!! I told her that what her son did to the historic area was vandalism, and I asked her for his name. She saw my point, and quickly shut up! After an amicable conversation with her, I told her I was mainly looking for coins, the other artifacts were not really my interest, although I often do keep them when I find them. I also told her I would love to donate any historically significant finds to the society if I was credited with donating them. So in this case it turned out OK.

Earlier this year I asked another property owner for permission to hunt an open field he owned. He said it was wrong to remove historic things and politely turned me away. A few weeks later the site was paved over to enlarge his office parking lot, covering whatever was beneath.
 
I live close to a very large civil war battle site. A few years ago I asked the owner of the bean field that most of the battle took place to detect. He said he didn't allow it. The owner of the field was the largest developer in the area. You guess it. He developed it and now there's tons of homes there. Now no one will ever see any artifacts public or private. I bet this happens every day somewhere? I'm not saying to sneak in to a site. But if a developer or road crew is going to excavate a known area of artifacts. They could at least give the detectorist notice to hunt.
 
There are many ways to steal and you just depicted one. When I was a kid I had a shoe box full of arrowheads, tomahawks, spearheads, skinning flints, etc. that I had just picked up off the ground in fields and vacant lots around the town where I lived. Course it wasn't against the law then and there wasn't an archie hiding behind every tree with some arcane law in his pocket forbidding it. Times have changed.

Bill
 
Yeah I know all about the cop stuff and if the cop knows you he will let you walk. Have a few ex cops in my family and a couple of good friends who were cops. They do watch out for each other.

Bill.
 
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