A few points to consider when posting finds & experiences on forums - ANY FORUMS!

[Andy Sabisch]

Over the years I have seen many posts that leave me scratching my head wondering what the person was thinking or should I say not thinking when they hit the final ENTER key. With some of the controversy that has come up on this forum and others lately, I wanted to pass on some points to consider when you are thinking of posting something . . . . do with it what you may:

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1) Do you think only your fellow detectorists read these forums? Having done several articles for magazines that cater to the National Park Service and professional archeologists, I can tell you with absolute certainty that archeologists, park service personnel and law makers do in fact read the posts on a regular basis. If you want to ensure more and more sites are closed to future hunting, then by all means post historically significant finds, details on where they were found and be sure to omit the statement that they were found on private property with permission of the landowner. In discussions with Park Superintendents going back more then 15 years, I have heard time and time again of finds made by detectorists from sites that are in fact protected. And these finds shown on printed pages from the forums were pulled from files and shown to me by those in the position of making the laws we are facing. The recent issue of state waters in Wisconsin being closed to detecting was greatly influenced by people postings photos of prehistoric copper artifacts that were being recovered from state owned lands and had been for years. When no one knew about them or publicized where they came from things were fine but when the posts showed the artifacts and then said they came from site X or site Y which was state owned, what reaction did we expect? Exactly what happened!

Think about the photos you post and if you do feel the need to post photos, add that they were found on private property with permission of the owner . . . . take a look at the photos relic hunting legend Ed Fedory publishes . . . since day one he always adds that to his posts. articles or books and does it for a reason.

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2) Do you think all detectorists have strong morals when it comes to hunting someone elses sites? If you find a killer site, you have to be a complete simpleton or extremely naive to post the specifics of the site where someone else can identify where you were. It would be great to say everyone would respect someone else's spots that they found but that is like asking a fisherman not to fish your "honey hole" . . . . . there will be 100 guys fishing the spot within 24 hours and detecting is no different. There are very few people I am willing to take to sites I have researched and are producing for that very reason . . . . . I have made that mistake too often in the past and in each case, one person takes two more who in turn take 4 more and so on . . . and the next thing I know the site is cleaned out. "Legal in USA" clearly messed up posting specific details of the golf course and describing why it was a great site to hunt . . . . . if there is a hunter within driving distance that is not at least thinking of hunting it, they must have a dozen other killer sites to hunt. But in fact he is not alone . . . . I will not hunt someone's site - does not matter of they took me there or they made the mistake of mentioning it in passing . . . . just do not do it. Unfortuately that is a psoition most do not hold . . . heck, the local club is always listening for site leads from "newer" members and have gone in cleaning out several very productive sites . . . . think who you are talking to - they are looking for sites and most will clean yours out given the chance.

Bottom line . . . . unless you are willing to open the door to every hunter with a computer (or a friend with a computer) within 100 miles, [size=large]DO NOT POST DETAILS OF YOUR SITE![/size] This includes photos that can be identified or or information that someone can deduce where you where.

In my latest book I have a photo of a George Washington button found by John Manger in Maryland. Well, he made the mistake of posting a photo of the find as well as the house he found it at where he had permission. Well, it took less than 24 hours for someone to identify it and John had to ask for the post to be pulled . . . several people went and hunted it without permission and John took the heat for their actions.

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3) Think about particularly rare finds before you post them: If your find has historical significance think twice before you post the photos and details of the find . . . you may be proud of your find and want to share it but as #1 above discusses, the audience is far larger than your fellow detectorists . . . . and they can easily figure out where it comes from.

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Until we have a system like the UK does where finds are cataloged by the local coroner or as we call then historians which encourages hunters to being in what they find along with specifics of where and how it was found to build a database used by historians, there will always be a group trying to shut us all down as we are perceived as "grave robbers" looting historical treasures. We can work to change that perception but many of the posts that appear on forums simply give the other side the ammunition that they are looking for to pass laws and close areas.

Just some points to consider . . . . . . . hope they are taken in the spirit in which they were intended.

Andy Sabisch

 

[trueblue]

interesting post some good points there Andy , shame its got to be that way

 

[Furious T]

It can be the same in a lot of hobbies, and even in societies themselves. The good and the beneficial can be spoilt and ruined by the stupid and the thoughtless.

 

[Jerry Ga.]

Andy, this is the best advice I have ever seen posted on any forum. These are cold hard facts that tell it like it is, especially the way local clubs pick members for site info. I have detected for 30 years and have enjoyed it for the most part but the future does not look good for this hobby unless folks wake up and realize that everyone is responsible for their own actions. The code of ethics found in most owners manuals is very simple to follow and if everyone would do so the hobby would not be under the gun. If things don't change I can see the hobby going down the tubes within the next few years.

 

[marcomo]

Andy - I wholeheartedly agree with what you said.

Loose lips sink ships. Specifically, loose lips deplete your hard earned sweet spots for detecting.

"Deep research" for many is lurking on these boards looking for clues on places to detect.

We all have a reponsibility to "do no harm" - to the land or our right to detect.

Unfortunately it always happens in life - we all pay the price for those few knuckleheads who have no ethics and even less intelligence.

Also when you post pictures of that extremely valuable find, remember that all finds you make are legally subject to taxation.

 

[padiggin]

Andy

I agree with what you wrote, however I wanted to respond with some of my points of view and opinion on the paragraph you wrote above.

First of all, I would like to mention that if Park Service personnel and law makers are regularly reading the postings on this forum, I'd have to question why they are receiving a tax payer based salary to sit in their offices to read forums such as this. In fact, if that is the case, I believe we all need to be writing our local congressional representative and submit written complaints that federal and/or local gov't employees are violating their agency policy on internet usage during duty hours. These gov't Park Service employees work for us, we do not work for them. :veryangry: And since my tax dollars are going to support their salaries, housing allowances, great gov't health care plans, life insurance, and retirement plans and cost of living increases that they enjoy annually, I expect that they will obey and follow their agency policy on internet abuse and carry out their public service duties by worrying more about assisting park visitors, keeping the rest rooms clean, and the property well groomed. Worrying about where metal detecting hobbyists are making their finds is not in their job descriptions I'm sure.

Secondly, while I agree with not posting the exact locations of finds (which if the Park Service public employees are reading this, they will now know we are being secretive about our finds), posting "found on private property with permission of the land owner" means nothing, especially since these public servants are attempting to squash any type of recovery efforts to include private property. It means nothing for two reasons, 1) because how is that statement proof that a person actually found the artifact on private property with permission of the land owner? A person can write anything and that doesn't necessarily make it fact or the truth. And 2) these "public servants" do not respect private property themselves. They want control. Control over you, control over what you do and what you own/possess. Just like in Kentucky where the law makers are attempting to pass a law restricting what you recover on private property "with permission of the land owner."

Again - I'm not arguing with what you wrote, I basically agree with all that you wrote. I'm just appalled that if you know for a fact, that gov't archeologists and park service employees, salaried by the tax payers, are reading these forums when they really should be out researching areas to do their work, assisting park visitors, developing artifact displays, cleaning the rest rooms, and mowing the properties of public lands, shame on them for abusing their agency policy on internet usage while we, the tax payers are paying their nice cushy salaries, and other perks to include annual cost of living increases. And shame on all of us for not raising our voices collectively to stop the intrusion of our rights by public officials. I'll get off my soap box now - hopefully a few fellow archeologists and park service employees read my comments. I'd love to know what any of them would have to say in order to justify their actions.

 

[Relic]

Are we absolutely positive that monitoring "our" forums isn't part of their job? If it is, that's even scarier. Before I retired, one of my responsibilities was to monitor specific Web sites. There's a significant difference between "recreational surfing" and monitoring for a reason. Maybe we need to contact our elected representatives to protest public employees who hang out in chat rooms and impersonate 14-year old girls, too.

One of the reasons I got into detecting is that I've been a history buff all of my life. I closely followed the Copper Culture and fur trade posts on another forum with envy. There is a Web site, too, that is devoted to Copper Culture artifacts found in Wisconsin with photos of finds and locations and other specifics. The thought occurred to me that eventually someone is going to take exception to collecting these artifacts and shut it down; and so they did. I live in Wisconsin and am directly impacted by that decision.

I would welcome the kind of program that Britain has enacted. I would get to hunt for these artifacts without worrying about having to constantly look over my shoulder, I would get to keep common items and would be remunerated and recognized for the uncommon ones.

The John Wayne cowboy approach isn't going to work, fellas. It's going to take compromise and cooperation on both sides, otherwise, as another poster pointed out, we can kiss our hobby goodbye.

Relic

 

[Scully]

Very well said Andy. I agree with everything you stated.

I am the current president of the Four Lakes Metal Detector Club in Madison, Wisconsin. We are the group fighting the Department of Natural Resources (DNR) in Wisconsin, for attempting to close down all water hunting in the State of Wisconsin. We have hired a lobbyist and we are fighting the DNR for what they are trying to do. Its taking a lot of money but we feel they have overstepped their bounds and we are taking them to task. The outcome of our efforts could radically affect other states and I am sure many are closely watching what happens here. If you would like to contribute money to our cause (Lobbyist's arent cheap), feel free to contact me. The DNR, in its infinite wisdom, feels its simply easier to ban the entire hobby and punish every one, than to work with detectorists and come up with a solution that we can both be happy with. Understand me here, I have a great deal of respect for what archaeologists do, in general, but they need to be policed because left unregulated they would prefer to ban the public from ever digging anything up, on public or private property. We have already seen them take steps to do this in other states. If you dont think the future of your hobby is in jeopardy, think again.

You indicated that in our case the authorities "were greatly influenced by people posting photos of prehistoric copper artifacts recovered from state owned land", and that statement isnt totally correct. It should state they "...were TOTALLY influenced by people.....". In our conversations with the Stater Archaeologist and the DNR Archaeologist, is was very apparent that they see these forums, they see items on E-bay an other auction sites, and they believe that ALL of these items are being taken off of state land. It doesnt make any difference if the majority of them are found on private property with permission, they will still believe that they come from state lands. They would much rather have the goods "rot in the ground" (a quote directly from the State Archie) than to have anyone else have the item. I used to think that statement was just a joke, but I heard it with my own ears and I was stunned.

To those of you that say they shouldnt be spending their time searching the internet, well wake up and smell the coffee! It happens! I dont know if they do it during working hours, or at home on their off time, but it DOESNT MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE!! The internet is there, they will use it. Its now a fact of life. If you post something on the internet, on a forum, or on Ebay, the rest of the world has access to it. Search engines today can find obscure, offbeat sites and blogs in seconds, all you have to do is search on the correct description. This is a different world today, and the internet has changed it big time. Many people that post things do so because they want the recognition of their fellow detectorists. They want to brag about what they have found and want to show everyone. That can be a double edged sword and you really need to think before posting something valuable or rare. Even after we cautioned posters on a forum dedicated to copper culture, detectorists continued to post pictures of their copper finds!

Copper Culture pieces have been bought and sold for years by Indian Artifact collectors. It has gone on at artifact shows around the country, locally advertised by relic clubs and organizations. This is nothing new, nor illegal. But start posting all of these artifacts on the internet and on Ebay and all of a sudden the entire world can see whats going on. Now granted, there are a few in this hobby that dont care about laws and that do sneak onto state lands and dig for artifacts. The Archies have seen their tell-tale signs, plugs left for everyone to see (that in itself is a totally idiotic thing to do), so they know it has happened and continues to happen. I would like to believe its only a select few that choose to hunt on state lands, but the Archies think it is wide spread. As a club we are asking them to prosecute those that are caught digging artifacts on state land. It may have been copper culture pieces that were the "straw that broke the camels back", but I blame the internet for causing this problem. As long as people continue to post all the things that they find, the Archies will have a front row seat to the show and if you dont indicate it was found on "private property" they will assume otherwise!

Some of us in this hobby know how to research and find sites through hard detective work. Some times it takes us years to learn the exact location of a site we have been researching. Some of us put in long hours into researching sites, not to mention getting permission and then keeping the respect of the land owner. Your site and your relationship with the owner can be destroyed in a second, by one wrongly placed word or picture, to the wrong person. If you have a valuable site and you want to protect it, the fewer people that know about it, the better. I have actually had people follow me, or go searching for my vehicle if they know I am in a particular area, so dont think that the same thing couldnt happen to you. If someone wants to find your site, they will go to almost any extreme to make it happen. The underlying cause here, is GREED. You show your valuable finds, and someone else will want to find those things too. And dont forget that it may not be your detecting friends that reveal your site. If you mention your finds and your "spot" to a loved one or other family member or friend, and fell safe because these people "dont metal detect", you may be cutting your own throat. They may innocently relay the information to a third party, without ever knowing it. In casual conversation, metal detecting gets mentioned, and they start talking about their uncle that finds all these cool copper things, he goes up north by Lake Something, west of John Doe city. To the wrong person, those words will be an "X marks the spot" map. Be careful what you say, and to whom you say it.

Well said Andy.

 

[padiggin]

"To those of you that say they shouldnt be spending their time searching the internet, well wake up and smell the coffee! It happens! I dont know if they do it during working hours, or at home on their off time, but it DOESNT MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE!! The internet is there, they will use it. Its now a fact of life. If you post something on the internet, on a forum, or on Ebay, the rest of the world has access to it. Search engines today can find obscure, offbeat sites and blogs in seconds, all you have to do is search on the correct description. This is a different world today, and the internet has changed it big time. Many people that post things do so because they want the recognition of their fellow detectorists. They want to brag about what they have found and want to show everyone. That can be a double edged sword and you really need to think before posting something valuable or rare. Even after we cautioned posters on a forum dedicated to copper culture, detectorists continued to post pictures of their copper finds! "


Umm, some of us woke up a long time ago. I realize it happens and I'm not saying that it doesn't happen. What I AM saying is that if it is happening during their work hours ( as I highly doubt these people would waste one minute of their time doing that on their off duty time) each and every one of us needs to be RAISING hell that our public servants are playing on the internet all while being compensated good salaries, good health benefits and nice cushy cost of living increases annually all paid up through you, the taxpayer. And that DOES MAKE A DIFFERENCE!! If you are okay with that and accepting of that, fine so be it. I for one am not and that is what I am saying. To those of you that say that it doesn't make a difference, well wake up and smell the coffee.

 

[padiggin]

I'd like to know if it was a job duty of these public servants to monitor our forums. And public servants monitoring chat rooms as 14 year olds is an entirely different ballgame. I work in the law enforcement profession and understand fully that being in a chat room to find sexual perps and monitoring relic hunting/metal detecting forums to justify their control is comparing apples to oranges. It has nothing to do with a "cowboy mentality" and more of sticking up for the rights of a legit hobby. Just because someone posts a find on the forum, whether or not it was found "with permission from the land owner" means nothing to these people. These gov't employees are not going to compromise as they want control. Does it come as no surprise that in Kentucky they are attempting to pass legislation on finds on private property? It has slim chance of passing, however just the fact that they are attempting it tells me one thing - they want control. There's no compromise there - as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Mike Hillis]

Use of the internet is part of the job desciption these days and is a required skill set. My job requires me to be able to be proficient in searching out information on the world wide web. I'm sure I'm not the only one. To think of the internet as just a recreational tool only for use on your own personal time is foolish.

HH

Mike