A few points to consider when posting finds & experiences on forums - ANY FORUMS!

[Andy Sabisch]

Over the years I have seen many posts that leave me scratching my head wondering what the person was thinking or should I say not thinking when they hit the final ENTER key. With some of the controversy that has come up on this forum and others lately, I wanted to pass on some points to consider when you are thinking of posting something . . . . do with it what you may:

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1) Do you think only your fellow detectorists read these forums? Having done several articles for magazines that cater to the National Park Service and professional archeologists, I can tell you with absolute certainty that archeologists, park service personnel and law makers do in fact read the posts on a regular basis. If you want to ensure more and more sites are closed to future hunting, then by all means post historically significant finds, details on where they were found and be sure to omit the statement that they were found on private property with permission of the landowner. In discussions with Park Superintendents going back more then 15 years, I have heard time and time again of finds made by detectorists from sites that are in fact protected. And these finds shown on printed pages from the forums were pulled from files and shown to me by those in the position of making the laws we are facing. The recent issue of state waters in Wisconsin being closed to detecting was greatly influenced by people postings photos of prehistoric copper artifacts that were being recovered from state owned lands and had been for years. When no one knew about them or publicized where they came from things were fine but when the posts showed the artifacts and then said they came from site X or site Y which was state owned, what reaction did we expect? Exactly what happened!

Think about the photos you post and if you do feel the need to post photos, add that they were found on private property with permission of the owner . . . . take a look at the photos relic hunting legend Ed Fedory publishes . . . since day one he always adds that to his posts. articles or books and does it for a reason.

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2) Do you think all detectorists have strong morals when it comes to hunting someone elses sites? If you find a killer site, you have to be a complete simpleton or extremely naive to post the specifics of the site where someone else can identify where you were. It would be great to say everyone would respect someone else's spots that they found but that is like asking a fisherman not to fish your "honey hole" . . . . . there will be 100 guys fishing the spot within 24 hours and detecting is no different. There are very few people I am willing to take to sites I have researched and are producing for that very reason . . . . . I have made that mistake too often in the past and in each case, one person takes two more who in turn take 4 more and so on . . . and the next thing I know the site is cleaned out. "Legal in USA" clearly messed up posting specific details of the golf course and describing why it was a great site to hunt . . . . . if there is a hunter within driving distance that is not at least thinking of hunting it, they must have a dozen other killer sites to hunt. But in fact he is not alone . . . . I will not hunt someone's site - does not matter of they took me there or they made the mistake of mentioning it in passing . . . . just do not do it. Unfortuately that is a psoition most do not hold . . . heck, the local club is always listening for site leads from "newer" members and have gone in cleaning out several very productive sites . . . . think who you are talking to - they are looking for sites and most will clean yours out given the chance.

Bottom line . . . . unless you are willing to open the door to every hunter with a computer (or a friend with a computer) within 100 miles, [size=large]DO NOT POST DETAILS OF YOUR SITE![/size] This includes photos that can be identified or or information that someone can deduce where you where.

In my latest book I have a photo of a George Washington button found by John Manger in Maryland. Well, he made the mistake of posting a photo of the find as well as the house he found it at where he had permission. Well, it took less than 24 hours for someone to identify it and John had to ask for the post to be pulled . . . several people went and hunted it without permission and John took the heat for their actions.

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3) Think about particularly rare finds before you post them: If your find has historical significance think twice before you post the photos and details of the find . . . you may be proud of your find and want to share it but as #1 above discusses, the audience is far larger than your fellow detectorists . . . . and they can easily figure out where it comes from.

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Until we have a system like the UK does where finds are cataloged by the local coroner or as we call then historians which encourages hunters to being in what they find along with specifics of where and how it was found to build a database used by historians, there will always be a group trying to shut us all down as we are perceived as "grave robbers" looting historical treasures. We can work to change that perception but many of the posts that appear on forums simply give the other side the ammunition that they are looking for to pass laws and close areas.

Just some points to consider . . . . . . . hope they are taken in the spirit in which they were intended.

Andy Sabisch

 

[BarnacleBill]

"Until we have a system like the UK does where finds are cataloged by the local coroner or as we call then historians which encourages hunters to being in what they find along with specifics of where and how it was found to build a database used by historians,"

Andy you will ice skating in Helll before I'm going to turn over anything I find to a government employee or agent. If I wasn't out looking for it, the item certainly wasn't going to be found anyway. I've put in my money, trained myself and put forth the effort to find the items, so the last person I'm going to hand them over to is a bureaucrat. Government employees generally run along two general lines, either apathetic or on a power trip.

My wife is a member of the state archaeological society and has taken part in digs on several early sites. But knowing what the attitude of the state employee supervisors are I won't even mention when I've found points or scrapers etc, for the simple reason that they will want to shut areas down that are not currently verbotten. Therefore because of the state archaeologists' lousy attitude they're going to miss out on finding out where significant sites are. As far as I'm concerned they can go pound sand!

The problem is NOT with the detectorists, the problem is the arrogance and power trip that the Archies are on. While they concentrate on passing laws, the items are rotting in the ground and will never be recovered even on "protected" ground. "We", that's right we, are the trained manpower that they need to get these items out of the ground before they disintegrate. They don't have the funding, the manpower, nor the skills to do it. "We" are the only force on the planet that can save these items from extinction, not the Archies! And yet the arrogant fools will not reach out to save the items because it's really all about them and their little power trips, and not the history.

A British system, I don't think so. What's next, registering your metal detectors with the government? A special tax on metal detectors for the government Archie fund? Giving fingerprints & DNA samples to the local Metal Detecting Warden? Giving them special warrantless search ability like certain Fish & Game departments, so that your house can be searched without notice for metal detecting contraband on the word of an Archie?

And if anyone in this country doesn't think that their 2nd Amendment rights aren't important, then the suggestion of an imposition of a British type of system should clarify that for you! We shed those shackles a long time ago and I for one am not going to volunteer to have their idea of government control re-imposed.

 

[SteveP(NH)]

The way it works is that you voluntarily report your finds, most of the time it ends there. If you find something that they want you get paid fair market value which usually gets split with the land owner if it is private property. The government helps to provide the money to buy the finds so helps to create a market for finds. Several detectorists have been paid sums into the hundreds of thousands of dollars. When this happens it generates lots of positive press which helps convince more land owners to open their land.

So you never turn over anything without getting paid for it. Seems like it is a good plan that has helped the hobby a great deal in Britain. The hobby has gained more legitimacy with the greater public, the press, the government and even with the archies over there. After studying their plan in detail it looks to me like it is the best law for detecting that any country has passed. It would be a huge step forward for us compared to the way we get treated now if we could get legislation that favorable to the hobby passed over here.

 

[BarnacleBill]

Steve I understand how the system works in Britain. The U.S. is NOT Britain, our republic is a State based system with an ever encroaching Federal government.

Excluding the personal freedom issues under such a system let's examine this from a practical standpoint. If I find an object in my small town exactly who am I going to turn this over to. The head of the local historical society? A professor at a nearby university? The clowns in the State Archaeology department? A new federal employee created by federal legislation? Is this going to be a new federal employee created per county, per state, per region? Who's going to pay for these new federal employees? New taxes no? And will these monies to pay for the finds not cause new taxes? Who's going to pay for this? An increase in Federal Income Taxes? I doubt it! There will be a fee or tax on metal detecting equipment that will initially be claimed to be targeted. And then guess what will happen? The federal archies will want more money for some pet project and guess who they're going to take great delight in targeting as a funding source?

Remember that scumbag Governor, now Senator Shaheen, initially promised no new state wide taxes to get elected, then signed a statewide property tax that was supposed to be targeted at school funding. How much of that tax money did towns/cities use for their schools? Very little! Most of it went into the general fund coffers in your state and was used to buy things like plow trucks etc. It's nice to know that Claremont was able to take the money siphoned from other towns and plow millions into it's downtown renovation. And this is exactly what is going to happen if we turn over control of our hobby to the leeches in Washington.

Look at the insanity in the recent Farm Bill over "indirect land use". Citizens of foreign powers were going to be given dominion over land owned by use U.S. farmers. This is land owned by U.S. citizens that they pay taxes on and yet the federal government was going to subjugate it's own citizens to foreign powers. This is tyranny at it's worst! Now the Farm Lobby wields infinitely more power than the metal detecting community, so how much control do you think we're going to have once any such legislation is introduced. You can cross your fingers and click your Ruby slippers together all you want, but once the archies get wind of it I can assure you that "they" will have the ear of the congress people.

Legislation can be introduced to mimic the British system, yet the resulting Bill could end up having silliness like banning water detecting because it runs afoul of the Clean Water Act. Once this ball gets rolling there is going to be no control or stopping it! Are you willing to take the chance? If the Detector manufacturers were willing to create a million dollar slush fund and line the pockets of key congress people then you have a chance of exerting some influence. Otherwise we're just going to be roadkill at the mercy of the vultures.

I believe the best option is to fly below the radar as Andy has pointed out in much of his post. Educate your fellow hobbyist's about staying away from protected lands, admonish them when they don't. Perhaps a detecting Etiquette forum should be started on Findmall which will discuss and formulate a list of do's & don'ts for each branch of the hobby with Best Practices per specific branch of the hobby. I believe there is a crying need as I continue to see questions like "is it OK to detect in cemeteries? " being asked. That the question is even being asked speaks to the woeful prescience of the questioner! Even if a British system were successfully put in place it is not going to prevent individuals of dubious character from continuing to act badly.

HH
BarnacleBill

 

[SteveP(NH)]

You make some good points Bill but my worry is that if we continue under the fly under the radar approach is that it will lead to a gradual loss of places to detect until there aren't many left. Just look in the last year Wisconsin State Parks were lost, city parks in Louisville, a popular park in New York and I am sure parks in other smaller towns that weren't big enough to make the news.

As this trend continues it can influence private land owners to close their own lands to detecting as well. Maybe it is a damned if we do and damned if we don't situation but at least here in NH the detecting community was able to influence legislation on the state level when the archies got a Historic Preservation law passed. This influence led to the inclusion of an exemptions clause (Chapter 227 c:12) that specifically allows metal detecting on much state owned lands in NH so it is possible, at least on a state level, to win some concessions. But I do agree with you that it could be a real can of worms if the idea of a national metal detecting law were to be considered by Congress.

Finally, while many archies are much as you describe them there are some that have much more informed and reasonable views of detectorists. I am sure you have heard of the archie who enlisted the help of detectorists to do a battlefield survey of the Custer battlefield, I have also read about other archies who have also used local detectorists to do similar surveys at battlefields in South Carolina and in New Jersey. So painting all archies with the same brush is as bad as when the worst of them says that all detectorists are looters and thieves. There are good and bad on both sides of the fence. It seems to me that responsible detectorists can gain by working with archies who understand that most detectorists are responsible, history loving, hobbyists and that only a very small percentage are nighthawks seeking to loot historically significant sites for personal gain.

 

[padiggin]

Andy

I agree with what you wrote, however I wanted to respond with some of my points of view and opinion on the paragraph you wrote above.

First of all, I would like to mention that if Park Service personnel and law makers are regularly reading the postings on this forum, I'd have to question why they are receiving a tax payer based salary to sit in their offices to read forums such as this. In fact, if that is the case, I believe we all need to be writing our local congressional representative and submit written complaints that federal and/or local gov't employees are violating their agency policy on internet usage during duty hours. These gov't Park Service employees work for us, we do not work for them. And since my tax dollars are going to support their salaries, housing allowances, great gov't health care plans, life insurance, and retirement plans and cost of living increases that they enjoy annually, I expect that they will obey and follow their agency policy on internet abuse and carry out their public service duties by worrying more about assisting park visitors, keeping the rest rooms clean, and the property well groomed. Worrying about where metal detecting hobbyists are making their finds is not in their job descriptions I'm sure.

Secondly, while I agree with not posting the exact locations of finds (which if the Park Service public employees are reading this, they will now know we are being secretive about our finds), posting "found on private property with permission of the land owner" means nothing, especially since these public servants are attempting to squash any type of recovery efforts to include private property. It means nothing for two reasons, 1) because how is that statement proof that a person actually found the artifact on private property with permission of the land owner? A person can write anything and that doesn't necessarily make it fact or the truth. And 2) these "public servants" do not respect private property themselves. They want control. Control over you, control over what you do and what you own/possess. Just like in Kentucky where the law makers are attempting to pass a law restricting what you recover on private property "with permission of the land owner."

Again - I'm not arguing with what you wrote, I basically agree with all that you wrote. I'm just appalled that if you know for a fact, that gov't archeologists and park service employees, salaried by the tax payers, are reading these forums when they really should be out researching areas to do their work, assisting park visitors, developing artifact displays, cleaning the rest rooms, and mowing the properties of public lands, shame on them for abusing their agency policy on internet usage while we, the tax payers are paying their nice cushy salaries, and other perks to include annual cost of living increases. And shame on all of us for not raising our voices collectively to stop the intrusion of our rights by public officials. I'll get off my soap box now - hopefully a few fellow archeologists and park service employees read my comments. I'd love to know what any of them would have to say in order to justify their actions.

 

[padiggin]

Bill,

I agree with you on those points about gov't intrusion. If what Andy says is true, that he has knowledge of park service employees and/or gov't archeologists playing on the internet to read our forums so they can make laws and shut us down, maybe it's time we start calling our local congressional reps and making formal complaints on these public servants who are paid nice salaries, great health insurance benefits, plenty of sick and vacation time benefits, and other perks on OUR dime. And gee, the nice annual cost of living raises are nice for these public servants too - how many of YOU out there are getting annual cost of living raises?????? Well guess what - ALL OF YOU are paying for these public servants to receive all these nice benies and to have them sit in their nice cushy offices reading our forums to use against us is insane - and as I said before, shame on all of us for allowing these public servants to get away with crap they are getting away with. From all levels of gov't, our rights are being taken away daily. Hey, it's up to us to put a stop to it - otherwise, it will just get worse.

 

[Steve(MS)]

I agree with Andy about making posts about rare finds and even not so rare ones in that it invites a lot of potential problems for the poster, most of that should be common sense.
BB's post has merit however and since I am from the deep south, I can take it a step further. With the shape this country is getting itself into, I can argue that the North shouldn't have
violated the South's State's rights and the right to secede from the Union .
Clearly that war is long over but shouldn't we just all "get along" and blindly do whatever our Gov. wants us to do ?
Don't get me wrong, I am for obeying the law as long as they make sense but when will they quit making up more ?

 

[Relic]

Are we absolutely positive that monitoring "our" forums isn't part of their job? If it is, that's even scarier. Before I retired, one of my responsibilities was to monitor specific Web sites. There's a significant difference between "recreational surfing" and monitoring for a reason. Maybe we need to contact our elected representatives to protest public employees who hang out in chat rooms and impersonate 14-year old girls, too.

One of the reasons I got into detecting is that I've been a history buff all of my life. I closely followed the Copper Culture and fur trade posts on another forum with envy. There is a Web site, too, that is devoted to Copper Culture artifacts found in Wisconsin with photos of finds and locations and other specifics. The thought occurred to me that eventually someone is going to take exception to collecting these artifacts and shut it down; and so they did. I live in Wisconsin and am directly impacted by that decision.

I would welcome the kind of program that Britain has enacted. I would get to hunt for these artifacts without worrying about having to constantly look over my shoulder, I would get to keep common items and would be remunerated and recognized for the uncommon ones.

The John Wayne cowboy approach isn't going to work, fellas. It's going to take compromise and cooperation on both sides, otherwise, as another poster pointed out, we can kiss our hobby goodbye.

Relic

 

[Kelley (Texas)]

n/t

 

[JW]

He also was a customer of ours; he told me the best way to shut an archaeologist up when he complains about metal detectorists is to ask him what he has in his collection at home. I've tried this a couple of times and it does work.
JW

 

[howlow666]

Hi all, well being that I am actualy from the UK. I do in a way understand what B Bill is saying, but England is a whole lot older than the USA. And with it a lot more history is there to be found. I May be wrong but think for the most part your finds are your's, and maybe have it in a museum with your name there for all to see. Or maybe they feel its wrong to dig where many may have died. HH all L8R


Jay

 

[David]

Yes it is a real can of worms to open if the government gets ahold of legislation about detecting in the USA. In a perfect legislation world a detectorist would get paid top dollar for treasure finds and have it in a museum with their name there for all to see as Jay said. A person spends alot of time, effort, and money to get set up and go to detecting places and the treasure finds seldom pay for expenses, let alone gas and food. The government must see and understand this also.

Steve(MS) wrote, "...I can argue that the North shouldn't have violated the South's State's rights and the right to secede from the Union. Clearly that war is long over but shouldn't we just all "get along..." Yes maybe you are right and there were probably several reasons for that war, but I thought that war was also suppose to be an effort over to stop the practise of keeping people as slaves on farms as well.

BarnacleBill wrote, "Look at the insanity in the recent Farm Bill over "indirect land use". Citizens of foreign powers were going to be given dominion over land owned by use U.S. farmers. This is land owned by U.S. citizens that they pay taxes on and yet the federal government was going to subjugate it's own citizens to foreign powers. This is tyranny at it's worst!" Yes I heard a foreign owned Japanese car company built a plant in Mississippi and local farmers and citizens of the USA were kicked off of their land to make way for a foreign owned company to build their plant. Yes tyranny at it's worst and a kick below the belt. Not so land of the free and freedom after all when the govenment does this. I always said even if the govenment expropriates land(bad enough for dams, airports, highways etc., the land owner should not be paid market value but instead at least 2x to 10x market value by law.

 

[TURNMASTER]

If you want a British system move to Britian.

Bigger government = more taxes and more repression

Yes, the outcome of the Civil War was the loss of state rights. The war was not fought over slavery, although THE ABOLITION OF SLAVERY was PROPER AND JUST.

Leave these laws to state and local govt. The feds have NO CONSTITUTIONAL AUTHORITY over such matters!!!

Read The Constitution Learn the law of the land, at least enough to have a clue about what the Federal Government is allowed to do, to tax and to regulate. The more you learn the more you will see how far the Federal Government has overstepped it's GOD given authority. This system was enacted by the citizens and restricted by the citizens, to serve the citizens!!!

I am with B. Bill on most of this and yes be discreet, ask permission, and get permits.

I am new to detecting and am having a good time and love the history and historical research involved in the hobby. I also enjoy the technical aspect. We do not need the Feds screwing things up for us. The Feds bungle up just about anything do or become involved with.

PLEASE EDUCATE YOURSELF, EXERCISE YOUR RIGHTS, BE INVOLVED IN SOME WAY, TAKE BACK YOUR COUNTRY

And to think I didn't think this was a political forum.

HH Jeff

 

[TomB]

JEFF...I HAPPEN TO LIVE IN THE GREATEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD..WE WORRY ABOUT A FEW LAWS AND THERE ARE PEOPLE ALL OVER THIS WORD WHO HAVE NO RIGHT AT ALL. I'M SORRY BUT WE DON'T NEED TO TAKE OUR COUNTRY BACK..WE NEED TO BE INFORMED AND KNOWLEDGEABLE...AND LET OR REPRESENTATIVES KNOW OF OUR CONCERNS AND STAND UP FOR OUR RIGHTS. I WONDER WHERE WE WOULD BE WITH OUT OUR FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. I'M AM AN AMERICAN AND DAMNED PROUD OF IT. TOMB

 

[Andy Sabisch]

The only thing I said about the UK that we could look at implementing was their system to record metal detecting finds . . . nothing more.

If anyone wants more information on the UK programs, here are two links:

http://www.detecting.org.uk/html/Portable_Antiquities_Scheme_Treasure_Metal_Detector.html

http://www.detecting.org.uk/html/Metal_Detectors_The_Treasure_Act.html

Andy Sabisch

 

[padiggin]

I'd like to know if it was a job duty of these public servants to monitor our forums. And public servants monitoring chat rooms as 14 year olds is an entirely different ballgame. I work in the law enforcement profession and understand fully that being in a chat room to find sexual perps and monitoring relic hunting/metal detecting forums to justify their control is comparing apples to oranges. It has nothing to do with a "cowboy mentality" and more of sticking up for the rights of a legit hobby. Just because someone posts a find on the forum, whether or not it was found "with permission from the land owner" means nothing to these people. These gov't employees are not going to compromise as they want control. Does it come as no surprise that in Kentucky they are attempting to pass legislation on finds on private property? It has slim chance of passing, however just the fact that they are attempting it tells me one thing - they want control. There's no compromise there - as far as I'm concerned.

 

[padiggin]

Tomb - I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you and I agree more with Jeff. We worry about a few laws for a reason. By ignoring a few laws here and there eventually lead to a nation of which you were just referring to having no rights. That's not what I want and I'm sure that's not what you want. Jeff's reference to "taking our country back" is meant as voicing our collective concern over our hobby, ensuring our rights, ensuring private property rights, etc. I for one think our federal gov't is going way too far in much of it's daily business. If you don't feel that way, then so be it. But there are many of us that are tired of the gov't intrusion into the daily lives of those who work hard, pay their taxes, paying for others to get a free ride, and having our rights slowly but surely taken away with a "few laws" here and there.

 

[TURNMASTER]

Hey Tom,

I am Proud to be an AMERICAN and would consider living nowhere else PERIOD. That being said I believe we have a Federal Government that has grown out of control and oversteps its CONSTITUTIONAL authority. As for me I believe there are simply too many laws on the books and so many that they override each other, just look to our tax laws in this country. YES YES YES get involved talk to your Representatives change the things YOU think need help. That is the kind of action that still makes this country great.

I do still believe that if we don't reign in the big business dollars, the morally corrupt politicians, and the very vocal minorities and get back to the roots of what made this country great in the first place, then there is a very good (bad) likelihood that the country that I grew up in will not be here for my grandchildren.

I am a patriotic and Conservative individual who doesn't like the direction that the USA is moving. I am solid middle class, work in manufacturing, and really enjoy the country I was raised in. The last thing I want to see is the Feds. get involved in the hobby that I have so recently become involved in and enjoy without having to include BIG BROTHER. The truth here is that state and local regulation is all that is required and even then may be more repressive than necessary (in some cases it would appear). If you have lost an area of hunting, I am sorry and that can likely be blamed on criminal activity of some sort and bad public relations. It is likely that with Federal involvement the darker side of the hobby will grow. It is fact though that if the Feds get involved the government will grow and so will the tax payment WE pay to keep all the bureaucracies afloat and earning wages that are often inflated for the job that they perform.

I AM NOT SAYING NO FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AT ALL, I DO BELIEVE A SMALLER FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WOULD BE BETTER FOR ALL THOSE INVOLVED. I JUST WANT A GOVERNMENT THAT LIVES WITHIN THE BOUNDS OF THE CONSTITUTION OF THESE UNITED STATES of AMERICA.

I still thank you all for the help you have provided me, I believe I have said enough now, good luck and happy hunting.

With no ill will intended and no bad feelings taken and in the spirit in which this Grand Republic I'll talk to you later.

JEFF

 

[Jeb NWR]

Its not always a bed of Roses here in the UK. Some finds which go to the TTB (treasure Trove board) are in many detectorists eyes undervalued and you`ll never hear anyone saying they felt they were over paid in value for their find. The grass isn`t always greener on the other side .
Jeb..... North west region,UK.