A few points to consider when posting finds & experiences on forums - ANY FORUMS!

[Andy Sabisch]

Over the years I have seen many posts that leave me scratching my head wondering what the person was thinking or should I say not thinking when they hit the final ENTER key. With some of the controversy that has come up on this forum and others lately, I wanted to pass on some points to consider when you are thinking of posting something . . . . do with it what you may:

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1) Do you think only your fellow detectorists read these forums? Having done several articles for magazines that cater to the National Park Service and professional archeologists, I can tell you with absolute certainty that archeologists, park service personnel and law makers do in fact read the posts on a regular basis. If you want to ensure more and more sites are closed to future hunting, then by all means post historically significant finds, details on where they were found and be sure to omit the statement that they were found on private property with permission of the landowner. In discussions with Park Superintendents going back more then 15 years, I have heard time and time again of finds made by detectorists from sites that are in fact protected. And these finds shown on printed pages from the forums were pulled from files and shown to me by those in the position of making the laws we are facing. The recent issue of state waters in Wisconsin being closed to detecting was greatly influenced by people postings photos of prehistoric copper artifacts that were being recovered from state owned lands and had been for years. When no one knew about them or publicized where they came from things were fine but when the posts showed the artifacts and then said they came from site X or site Y which was state owned, what reaction did we expect? Exactly what happened!

Think about the photos you post and if you do feel the need to post photos, add that they were found on private property with permission of the owner . . . . take a look at the photos relic hunting legend Ed Fedory publishes . . . since day one he always adds that to his posts. articles or books and does it for a reason.

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2) Do you think all detectorists have strong morals when it comes to hunting someone elses sites? If you find a killer site, you have to be a simpleton or extremely naive to post the specifics of the site where someone else can identify where you were. It would be great to say everyone would respect someone else's spots that they found but that is like asking a fisherman not to fish your "honey hole" . . . . . there will be 100 guys fishing the spot within 24 hours and detecting is no different. There are very few people I am willing to take to sites I have researched and are producing for that very reason . . . . . I have made that mistake too often in the past and in each case, one person takes two more who in turn take 4 more and so on . . . and the next thing I know the site is cleaned out. "Legal in USA" clearly messed up posting specific details of the golf course and describing why it was a great site to hunt . . . . . if there is a hunter within driving distance that is not at least thinking of hunting it, they must have a dozen other killer sites to hunt. But in fact he is not alone . . . . I will not hunt someone's site - does not matter of they took me there or they made the mistake of mentioning it in passing . . . . just do not do it. Unfortuately that is a psoition most do not hold . . . heck, the local club is always listening for site leads from "newer" members and have gone in cleaning out several very productive sites . . . . think who you are talking to - they are looking for sites and most will clean yours out given the chance.

Bottom line . . . . unless you are willing to open the door to every hunter with a computer (or a friend with a computer) within 100 miles, [size=large]DO NOT POST DETAILS OF YOUR SITE![/size] This includes photos that can be identified or or information that someone can deduce where you where.

In my latest book I have a photo of a George Washington button found by John Manger in Maryland. Well, he made the mistake of posting a photo of the find as well as the house he found it at where he had permission. Well, it took less than 24 hours for someone to identify it and John had to ask for the post to be pulled . . . several people went and hunted it without permission and John took the heat for their actions.

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3) Think about particularly rare finds before you post them: If your find has historical significance think twice before you post the photos and details of the find . . . you may be proud of your find and want to share it but as #1 above discusses, the audience is far larger than your fellow detectorists . . . . and they can easily figure out where it comes from.

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Until we have a system like the UK does where finds are cataloged by the local coroner or as we call then historians which encourages hunters to being in what they find along with specifics of where and how it was found to build a database used by historians, there will always be a group trying to shut us all down as we are perceived as "grave robbers" looting historical treasures. We can work to change that perception but many of the posts that appear on forums simply give the other side the ammunition that they are looking for to pass laws and close areas.

Just some points to consider . . . . . . . hope they are taken in the spirit in which they were intended.

Andy Sabisch

 

[hunter 18]

A Men To That
Good One
Andy

 

[Neil]

n/t

 

[Corpsegrinder]

Good "blog?" Andy.. Being a Fanboy of yours i always like to hear what you have to say.. Guess ole Grinder is in Detecting love.

 

[Brett]

Great article! Loose lips sink ships!

 

[John - Maryland]

Your right about that. Well put.

 

[Erik in NJ]

When no one knew about them or publicized where they came from things were fine but when the posts showed the artifacts and then said they came from site X or site Y which was state owned, what reaction did we expect? Exactly what happened!

Think about the photos you post and if you do feel the need to post photos, add that they were found on private property with permission of the owner . . . . take a look at the photos relic hunting legend Ed Fedory publishes . . . since day one he always adds that to his posts. articles or books and does it for a reason.

I'm sure you don't mean it this way, but the above statement can (note I said "can" and that I'm sure you don't mean it in this way) be interpreted that it's OK to find historically significant artifacts on state owned property or elsewhere as long as you don't publicize it on a public forum or add a caption that they were found on private property with permission of the owner. I think the point is that people must stay off protected land and if they do unearth a historically significant or even a potentially historically significant item, it should be minimally reported to the proper authorities so that it may contribute to our understanding of history. For someone to sit on a historically significant find no matter where it was found (even on your own property) is wrong.

I agree with you that we have a lot to learn from the British system and it would behoove us to put such a system in place for the preservation of our history.

 

[sangamon]

I tried to P.M. you regarding our most recent exchange (conciliatory words) but I couldn't get through.
Thought you should know. -Ean

 

[JohnnyI]

Andy, good morning. I have to confess I lost more than a little sleep last night after reading your post, and wondering how, or even if I should respond. I agree with you on all you said about foolishly giving away locations to anyone prematurely, and we'd all be wise to heed that warning. Anyway, thankfully I awoke this morning to find that Eric had addressed some of my other concerns, and did so far more diplomatically ( and briefly) than I ever could have. As Eric eluded to, the act of hunting on public lands without permission is wrong, and is what will provide ammunition for that "group trying to shut us all down."

Responsible documentation of historical finds made on private lands is another thing altogether; and again I agree with Eric, we have a duty to see that such finds do not become simply "objects" with no provenance or historical import beyond that. This can be done disceetly, or openly as the situation dictates, and this will become our own ammunition if and when "that little group" starts blowing their horn.

In the thirty-five years I've been doing this I've seen countless historically significant locations bulldozed and developed. I'm not talking about fairgrounds or generic locations, I'm talking about early American villiages that showed interaction with trade, or even more importantly, sites which have military significance. Contrary to such sites being shut down when their location has been revealed as a means to either save them or stall operations until they can be more carefully searched, I have, and others have been met with the following:

"There is not enough data to prove this site", or the "site cannot be considered archeologically significant because it was not excavated in the formula way, but instead consisted of objects found at undetermined strata".

As I've mentioned in another thread, with the advent of the metal detector this formula (taught in schools for years) becomes obsolete. In fact the mere quantity of finds from a particular location provides a new credability to a location, but only when such finds are documented in their entirety. By the way, I have never yet seen such a site on private land closed down because it was revealed to a historical society.

While my coffee cooks let me give you an example of such a site. I have no problem disclosing it, as like so many now like it, it is now a gated, paved, and off limits development:

In my native Bucks County there had been, and still is debate on where exactly General Monroe crossed the Delaware on Christmas eve. For years I worked a series of fields miles north of where General Washington is said to have crossed. In a particular large area of one field I, as well as friends, found numerous musket balls, sprew, braid, "George's", and other articles which suggested a particular encampment was there. It's funny you mentioned the find of a Washington Innaugural button. Within sight of this field there once stood an Inn which was in operation directly after the war (it too is now a development, and even the road leading to it has been "moved" ) On this site in what would have been the stable area, I found the "laurel wreath" "long live the president" button which some hsitorical documentation suggests was created expressly for General Monroe to wear to the inauguration. What was it doing there above the site of this encampment? There were other "better" inns nearby where he could have stayed. Did he visit this site out of the nostalgia of a warrior who had trod this ground on that fateful night? We will never know for sure, but one thing is sure, Without the TOTALITY of the finds that each of us shared; without some record of where things were found and in what quantity, no scenerio could be guessed at, and the finds themselves would amount to individual artifacts of questionable worth in themselves. "Washington crossing the Delaware" would have remained in our minds the simplistic version of the event that is in every textbook.

My words of advice are these:
1) Pre-empt that 'little group" by personally documenting any find that you might deem historic. There is power in pre-emption!
2) Become involved with your local historical society BEFORE you discover the "big one", and as such, be master of the situation, not be subserviant to it.
3) If you feel that making a find public knowledge may stall the destruction of a location, then follow your conscience and do it. (unfortunately, chances are nobody will care)
4) If you feel afraid to do the above, then at least provide that your documantation reaches a permenant historical society upon your death, or after you feel you've worked the spot out.

By doing the above you will not only be contributing to the country, but you'll a part of its tapestry. Other people can look at their surroundings in a completely different way as we all do. You will also be setting the groundwork for the time when hopefully there can be a data base such as what the U.K. has. "Them against us" will never be the answer. Gaining credibility is what will shut that 'little group" up for good.

A last thought; From my own experience I'd say that the vast majority of people, even those who claim to be historians, do not have a clue as to what history is held in the ground. The majority consider the "structure" or the "expanse" the hsitory . By educating those who don't know what each one of us knows so well, the vital story which is told beneath the surface, we're not only adding to that history, but we're hopefully helping to create an atmosphere of respect for the land that goes beyonf just metal detecting and encompasses stewardship. This is something the U.K. has held to for many years.

That's my two-cents worth. Thanks for reading.

 

[Andy Sabisch]

I never intended to lead people to think that hunting any site - again ANY site - without permission was an acceptable practice. If you have permission to hunt a site and make a historically important find, then as Johnny said, make sure you document the find, location and specifics of the area. This is the basis for the UK system that while some feel is taking away their freedom by having them record finds (people here not in the UK), it does allow finds to be recorded for future reference.

Johnny makes some good points and I never planned to have my short post become the end all gospel . . . just some points to think about and as others have done, solicit input and add to what actions we all take.

Andy Sabisch

 

[JohnnyI]

Thanks Andy. As Eric said, I was sure that this is what you meant. I just wanted to clarify it, and in particular, voice my own particular concerns over what direction we should take in the future, particularly if we want to diffuse the power of those who might want to "shut us down". Thanks for opening up a dialogue on this important subject!

 

[Erik in NJ]

Hi Sangamon,

I deleted some messages......Sorry about that - please resend if you'd like......and sorry to anyone else out there that tried to PM (or flame ) me.

 

[Chris(SoCenWI)]

n/t

 

[Chris(SoCenWI)]

n/t

 

[Erik in NJ]

You did the subject much more justice than I could have! Fascinating reading as well - posts such as this should be required reading for all members of this forum, if not the entire metal detecting community itself. Thank you for putting it so well.

 

[marcomo]

Andy - I wholeheartedly agree with what you said.

Loose lips sink ships. Specifically, loose lips deplete your hard earned sweet spots for detecting.

"Deep research" for many is lurking on these boards looking for clues on places to detect.

We all have a reponsibility to "do no harm" - to the land or our right to detect.

Unfortunately it always happens in life - we all pay the price for those few knuckleheads who have no ethics and even less intelligence.

Also when you post pictures of that extremely valuable find, remember that all finds you make are legally subject to taxation.

 

[gregliss]

In my short time detecting I've unfortunatly seen this happen to one other......loose lips and next day his site was cleaned out.....he was gutted to say the least. I think he learnt a lesson that day.

I've also suggested sites based on historic research and been told "that a retired guy detects there every day, don't bother" and "I've done that site", go there anyway and the site is packed with oldies. I think they are tring to protect the site by discourging me and go there later.

Although there are a lot of good people in this hobby, when it comes to "site talk" you're better off changing subjects.........part of the game I guess

Reminds me of an old army saying:

"trust your mate with your life,
but not your money or your wife" (or detecting site lol)