2 Box in extremely high mineralized areas

[michaelosully]

Have been thinking about getting a 2 Box MD (either a Fisher or White's) for use in the Colorado Rockies around old mines, mining camps and campsites. Not necessarily just for cache hunting but also for locating old hand mining tools and equipment buried up to 3 or 4 feet deep.

Would appreciate input as to how effective the Fisher Gemini or White's 808 would be in the highly mineralized soil conditions for locating what I would call medium sized iron/metal/cache targets. I have read that they don't detect small objects such as coins but in mining areas around Silverton, Ouray, Telluride ... will they be useful in finding fist size targets at 2 to 3 feet deep while discriminating out near surface smaller items such as aluminum foil and cans [I can find those without much effort LOL]?

Also, any thoughts on the Gemini vs. the 808 in highly mineralized areas would be helpful.

There just seems to be very little information available here or on the web from actual users of the 2 box so thought I ask before spending the $'s.

Thanks,
mountain digger

 

[michaelosully]

n/t

 

[D-Tex]

I don't remember witch one of the two it was but only
one of them was able to ground balance, if you can
find that out that would be the one I would go with.
You are correct ( almost ) that a two box will not detect
coin size objects, coke can size is about as small as they
will detect , but there have been exceptions over the years.
I think that was due to a oxide halo around the objects
found but it's been to long now for me to remember
the details, who, where, what, etc, etc.. I had a Garrett
2500 with there two loop set up a few years back, some-
where on this forum you should be able to find a test post
I did with it. It did go VERY deep, but as with other two
loop detectors you could not GB it. I got rid of it not because
of that but because it was just to heavy to use for any length
of time. If you can't find my post let me know and I'll see if
I can't did it up in my files and send it to you. You can expect
to get about the same results with any of the two box rig's
out there. They will all go deeper than most people want
after they dig up a tin can from three or four feet, I know
for a fact they will do that. You should be able to pick up
a pocket watch size object with one with no problem.
I picked up the water mains on my street and I know they
are at least six feet down and the signal was still strong
so it would have gone deeper. Also picked up oil pipelines
that ran across a place I lived on when I first got it, don't
know how deep or what size lines they were though. I
would not use a machine like this in any area that was
ate up with junk item's in large numbers, to much work
for to little good. Very much of that and it end's up on the
For Sale or Trade board. Now if your in an area where
you could hunt ore veins that's a different story. G.L.

 

[D-Tex]

Just went into my files and found the test ;
Posted on 2/26/09 under the title " Reveling Test "
Posted under my old user name XT18000
Had to change user name due to someone else
using it on another web site.
do a search and you should be able to fine it.

 

[michaelosully]

D-Tex,
Thanks for this info.

I found and read your thread 'Reveling Test' comparing the Garretts Treasure Hound to the Sovereign. I've pretty much ruled out the Treasure Hound for now (mostly based on cost unless I can find a good used unit).

I looked to see about the GB on both the Fisher Gemini and White's 808. The White's has a GB knob and the Gemini has a 'Balance adjustment' knob. Hum, I just assumed that this meant that both had GB but guess I'm wrong. I think some more research will be necessary as if the Gemini doesn't have GB, I'll go with a Whites 808. You may have saved me from making a big mistake and I thank you for that. Perhaps some Gemini users can chime in here on whether the Gemini has GB and how it handles highly mineralized soils.

Given that the Whites 808 has GB, I would like to hear from some actual users of the 808 on it's performance.

Again, thank you for your expertise and thoughts.

 

[Mega]

I do own and use a Fisher TW-5 2 box setup,i would mainly use it on a few sites that i supect a possible hoard in the UK,why did i go for the Fisher ??? well after doing some homework it in my mind is more refind than say the TM808 the older TM800 i think was the model was even better.The newer 808 model does not as far as i can see have the cave mode anymore so folks dont like them as much as the older models for that reason.

Of course these 2 box machines are mainly designed for larger objects and the larger the item the deeper they go,i have noticed that you dont get alot of problems with trash and it will also pick up on a single large coin as well which i was amazed at really.I did use a TM808 that i borrow while deciding which make and model to go for,but finally chose the Fisher as i felt is was a much better machine all round and also i found more sensitive as well.From observation from folks and once again i can only speak from my experiance in the UK the defacto standard of 2 box design has always been he White but after folks have purchased this model they usally have sold them on very quickly as they find they are not as good as 1st thought.

My Fisher only comes out to play a few times a year as it is of course a niche specific machine,its easy to set up and use and weighs about the same weight as say a CTX3030 but when used used with the harnes that supports the whole weight of the machine i just do not notice it.

When i initially purchased this machine i tested on my vast test garden and i must admit it was very suprised on how sensitive it is on large single coin size finds,of course these are only found at small depth but you the start using it on larger items then that is when it really starts kicking butt,the larger you go the deeper it goes.

I wont mention any form of depth figures as this usally get a lot of folks say its BS,but we are not talking about a normal detecting type of machine,its a specific machine that is used for a specif purpose,i am still learning it but the more time i spend with it the refiner i can get it.When i use this machine i have to try and fine tune it to get the best results and give me better reward to effort ratio in my favour,what i mean by this in laymans language it aint no fun digging bloody deep holes.

Not many folks use these types of machines these days and i guess its possible as a result of being able to buy a Pulse machine and by using DD coil and only on certain machine have some form of very basic iron discrimination,most folks dont of course want to find iron items like yourself.

What machine would go for ??? my reply would be the Fisher hands down,its a much refiner machine but of course its personal choice at the end of the day,the GB i have found is also not a problem and also because these machines run at a very much higher Khz than normal machines they dot seem to pick up small trash but let it loose on open ground in the enviroment that you will be using it in and if anything is deep in the area then it should find it.

Other things that also worth thinking about is of course a better stronger digging bit of kit as its no good using a small handle digging spade to dig deep holes,i had 2 special custom ones made that are stronger and also longer handles.

Good luck with what ever option you choose.

 

[Pyledriver]

I have the industrial White's 2 box. It's called a CBP or something like that but is actually a TM808 with cave mode...that is bright yellow. I've only used it a few times and have come to realize that it can be quirky! I've used it in two areas that have very different mineralization levels, and it handles them both once GB'd, but being a manual GB, it needs to be checked and adjusted every so often. When that time comes, the adjustment may be only a tiny turn of the knob-meaning it doesn't take much! I do find that's it's not a one knob operation though, as one setting seems to affect all the others. Honestly, I sometimes feel my T2 was less of a pain! I kept the two box though for one reason--it ignores the small stuff! I had also looked at White's ULA with a large coil, but again, I don't want to see small stuff.

Probably not much help but that's been my experience with it thus far.

 

[michaelosully]

MegaB,
All very good input and I agree that a 2 box is only a niche detector. Your thoughts really help but I'm still a bit concerned about no GB on the Fisher Gemini, but your point about running at higher frequency is noted. Would like to hear more about how frequency affects the need for GB??? I appreciate your mentioning this as I was not aware that operating at a higher frequency could negate the need for GB.

I don't plan to use a 2 box much (only where I get no signals from my x-terra) and certainly don't enjoy the work at the end of a shovel...but in areas where there are practically no signals...I'll certainly dig in.
Thanks for your recommendation on the Fisher Gemini.

 

[michaelosully]

I have the industrial White's 2 box. It's called a CBP or something like that but is actually a TM808 with cave mode...that is bright yellow. I've only used it a few times and have come to realize that it can be quirky! I've used it in two areas that have very different mineralization levels, and it handles them both once GB'd, but being a manual GB, it needs to be checked and adjusted every so often. When that time comes, the adjustment may be only a tiny turn of the knob-meaning it doesn't take much! I do find that's it's not a one knob operation though, as one setting seems to affect all the others. Honestly, I sometimes feel my T2 was less of a pain! I kept the two box though for one reason--it ignores the small stuff! I had also looked at White's ULA with a large coil, but again, I don't want to see small stuff.

Probably not much help but that's been my experience with it thus far.

Pyledriver,

I have heard about the older 808 with cave mode but have no idea what the cave mode is for or if it would be of use to me. Is this the version that was made by Discovery Electronics?

Where I am, the ground mineral changes happen over a very small range, so re-GBing often would be necessary. Interesting when you say GB affect all other settings so it could be a hassle. Doubt I could find one like yours used but I may start looking. I'm certainly open to buying used and I see both the 808 and the Gemini frequently, but not the version of Whites you have. I'm like you in that I don't want to see small stuff out on the mining claims. My experience is that the small stuff is the junk I want to discriminate out when doing this type of hunting.

Glad you provided this input as it really helps.

 

[jalon]

The Whites TM808 is a ground cancelling metal detector! The other major brands do not ground balance---period. They operate in TR mode and are capable of excellent depth in low to moderate minerals. In Colorado the TM 808, TM 800, or TF 940 by discovery are the only logical choices for hunting the mine dumps. The older 940's were much better than the later ones and they had a cave mode as well. If you can find a whites or discovery model that utilizes bolts to mount the Transmit and receive coils to the control shaft you will be better off. The spring clip mounts do not allow for a solid connection and will cause noise problems.
I personally think the cave mode is necessary for a good, all around deep seeker. The cave mode is nothing more than a TR, all metal mode with no GB. It's like having 2 detectors in one package. If you happen to be hunting in low minerals, or cache hunting and looking for a void, or disturbed ground then the cave mode is good to have. Trying to use a Gemini 3 in heavy minerals is a waste of time and money, same for the bloodhound and Hayes units. They are all darn good rigs but have limitations in mineralized dirt! The Whites and Discovery units are a part of my arsenal and have been for many years. I have used all the majors and and the quality is definitely there but without a ground balance circuit, well the choice would seem to be clear.
If you have questions, shoot me a PM. I do hunt the high minerals in Colorado---a lot.
John London

 

[michaelosully]

John,
I really appreciate your posting this information. You have given me reason to do more research before purchasing. I plan to take you up on your offer so when I get my thoughts together, I will pm you.
You really hit the nail on the head with your response while considering how and where I anticipate using a 2-box unit.

 

[Pyledriver]

Wow John-good info! There doesn't seem to be much info on these machines and finding experienced users is hard to do! I didn't realize cave mode was TR but it makes sense. My unit also has the bolts for the coils, which I'm happy to find is a good thing. I'll probably be dusting mine off soon for one of my sites..

 

[jalon]

OOPS! Guess I had a senior moment. The 2 box detector I referred to in my post above should have said T F 900 not T F 940. Sorry for any confusion.
John London

 

[Drjohn71a]

thanx for posting this, guys... however, I'm now confused... are you saying there are modern versions with "TR" that are "cave mode"? What is "TR"?

 

[jalon]

John, The cave mode is just a all metal mode with no ground cancelling ability. The Whites and Discovery models do have a motion based ground balance, all metal mode and a separate mode with no ground balance, called the "cave mode". The TR/cave mode is/was used to look for voids in the ground. After tuning to the ground, the operator has to maintain the same height above ground as when the detector was tuned. It takes some practice to get it right, but caves or voids have been found using the TR mode. Garrett, Fisher and Hayes 2 box units operate in the tr, all metal mode, Whites and Discovery units did have both modes, but no longer have the cave mode.
John London

 

[Drjohn71a]

While finding a cave or hoard would be nice, my main aim in a two box was thinking it may find underground synthetic pipes. My own water well distribution is synthetic as are many of the pipelines passing through my land. I was also hoping a cave mode would help find large fossils, e.g., mammoth skeleton.

Would a Fisher or modern TM 800 or Fishers two box (the red one) find synthetic pipes? I'm thinking not. Would a cave mode do that?

 

[Dave J.]

While finding a cave or hoard would be nice, my main aim in a two box was thinking it may find underground synthetic pipes. My own water well distribution is synthetic as are many of the pipelines passing through my land. I was also hoping a cave mode would help find large fossils, e.g., mammoth skeleton.

Would a Fisher or modern TM 800 or Fishers two box (the red one) find synthetic pipes? I'm thinking not. Would a cave mode do that?

There is no "ordinary apparatus" that is of practical use in locating fossils. That's where a "geological eyeball" is the hot setup and without it ya ain't got much.

When nonmetallic pipes are installed, by law in most places you're supposed to install along with them a conductive wire or tape that can be used with a 2-box unit to trace the route of the pipe. However many water delivery installations on private property are done by people who don't know this, or are in jurisdictions where the law doesn't apply to private property. If you've got plastic pipe and no electrically conductive tracer wire to show where the pipe is, in general you've just run out of electronic locating options.

 

[michaelosully]

To update my original post:

I have just purchased a White's 808 from another forum member and I look forward to learning it and giving it a full summer of use in the San Juan mountains this summer. I want to publicly thank forum member jalon for his guidance and expertise. I'm afraid that w/o his help, I would have made a mistake and purchased something other than 'the best' unit for my particular needs.

THANK YOU, John!!!